4 ms·

This is such a simplified viewpoint. The UK has never been able to collect more than 39%-40% of GDP in taxes. And that's what the level is at now. Already every

This is such a simplified viewpoint. The UK has never been able to collect more than 39%-40% of GDP in taxes. And that's what the level is at now. Already everyone is paying as much tax as in history. (and the "rich" pay a lot of that, remember you pay £0 tax under £15,000 income per year). You can try and tax more, but it's highly unlikely to work based on past experience. And in these cases, like with corporation tax, usually the government actually collects more tax revenue at 20% than at 30%. So again, I'd prefer factual taxation, not virtue signalling. What's the solution here to get more in taxes?

Glawen 4y ago
Remember that everyone is paying VAT, so yes little income are also taxed
- Moissanite 4y ago
  I feel like we need a progressive VAT, which differentiates necessities from luxuries. Probably too complex to implement though.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Many countries have progressive VAT. In my country food is half the VAT of consumer goods while medicine and books have zero VAT. It's definitely not that difficult to do.
  - stu432 4y ago
    We do already, there's several VAT values, necessities are supposed to be VAT free for instance. Has some quirks in it, so you end up with the Jaffa Cake Vs Biscuit debacle - https://www.astonshaw.co.uk/news/jaffa-cake-tax/#:~:text=The%20significance%20of%20the%20borderline,always%20remain%20exempt%20from%20VAT https://www.astonshaw.co.uk/news/jaffa-cake-tax/#:~:text=The....
    - Moissanite 4y ago
      I was aware of the biscuit thing, but think it should just be rolled out more widely. We sort of have that with luxury cars, but an across the board increase of VAT to 30% on high-end goods is really what going for - defining luxury goods is left as an exercise for the reader.
      - stu432 4y ago
        Pretty comprehensive list here, https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-of-vat-on-different-goods-and-services https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-of-vat-on-different-goods-...
  - midasuni 4y ago
    I pay hardly anything in vat other than a few luxuries. Food Rent Public transport No vat on those Electricity is only 5% A few quid a year on vat on toothpaste hardly makes a difference.
Veliladon 4y ago
If only there was some form of large market close by that the UK could be a member of so that the UK could trade with them in a frictionless manner and expand the economies of both areas through trade. That would increase the GDP and hence the amount of money the government could have available to it through taxation. But I don't think there is anything like that around. I mean, if there was, why the hell wouldn't they be lining up to become a member of it? There's only upside there.
- cloutchaser 4y ago
  Very nice, but the EU is probably going to decline in GDP more than the UK, and the euro could potentially collapse due to the Italy situation in the next few years. Thinking the UKs issues are because of brexit are about as simplistic as saying “tax the rich will solve all the worlds issues”
  - jimnotgym 4y ago
    >the EU is probably going to decline in GDP more than the UK Even if that does happen, it doesn't necessarily follow that the UK couldn't also have a higher GDP by trading with the EU >Thinking the UKs issues are because of brexit ... could make you the governor of the Bank of England https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/16/brexit-and-drop-in-workforce-harming-britain-economic-recovery-says-bank-governor https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/16/brexit-and-...
    - sgt101 4y ago
      It doesn't follow, but history post 2016 wasn't written in gold if the UK had stayed in. The north of England, the central belt of Scotland and the south of Wales were in a terrible state. Brexit has failed to help, but remaining almost certainly wouldn't have either. The biggest issue the UK has experienced since leaving is Covid-19. Remaining wouldn't have helped us in that contingency. The UK has blamed Europe for it's ills for 40 years. Remainers/rejoiners are still centered on this - we have to start to look to ourselves. Being in or out of Europe is not at issue; working to build a sustainable national economy and polity is.
hnhg 4y ago
You should say high income earners rather than "the rich" here, to be perfectly accurate. The two are not always the same.
- Moissanite 4y ago
  Very important for people to understand this. For high earners (100-200k), marginal tax rates can already pass 60%. That is an income which is locally considered very high but compared to our Atlantic cousins is somewhat more normal. I will be thousands of pounds worse off per year under the new tax plans, but I'm OK with that because I understand that it is necessary. However, we are rapidly approaching most people's tolerance limit in this regard; unless the next government does a very good job of tackling economic injustice it feels like people will just give up - at which point the only way is down. Now, what "give up" really looks like is key - I feel like widespread civil unrest is far closer than most people realize, but before that there will be a further decline in social cohesion. Right now it feels like this story is being masked by the Ukraine situation.
  - midasuni 4y ago
    Becaus of the “high income child tax” and student loan repayments marginal tax rates at just 50k hit 70%. They drop again at 60k, but it’s tricky to justify working extra hard for a £5k pay rise when you only keep £2k of it. Doesn’t help that you can’t file jointly in the U.K. either.
phphphphp 4y ago
If that’s true, why isn’t that the party line? Every tax-reductionist I’ve heard from talks to the moral crime of high taxation, and the necessity to cut reliance on the government. I have not heard (as a regular person outside of academic circles) any politician argue that reducing taxes will increase revenue. Given how trivial this concept is to validate (cut taxes and see revenue go up) why hasn’t it been implemented? https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan/economy https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan/economy
- zpeti 4y ago
  Honestly, because since Blair the conservatives have been playing politics in labour's court, and labour's language and labour's politics. There hasn't been a clear and good communicator in the conservative party since... I want to say Thatcher? The facts of this are true. When corp tax decreased from 28% to 20% tax take actually increased. But the conservatives seem unable to communicate this properly. It's sad to be honest. The "science" is there. But blaming the "Tories who want to reduce taxes on the rich and screw you" seems to be the talking point, not facts.
woodruffw 4y ago
> This is such a simplified viewpoint. The UK has never been able to collect more than 39%-40% of GDP in taxes. And that's what the level is at now. Already everyone is paying as much tax as in history. This has a double meaning: (1) “everybody” meaning the whole body, and (2) “everybody” meaning each tax-paying individual. The two are not the same: it can be true that the whole body of taxpayers is paying the same amount (proportionately) into the GDP as always, while more of that proportion comes from the lower and middle classes than it historically has.
jimnotgym 4y ago
One solution is to tax wealth rather than income. That should be popular...
- akmarinov 4y ago
  Nationalise some royal lands
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    What's stopping the UK government to seize UK land owned by the royal family? Or at least taxing them the same rates as the peasants instead of letting them freeload.
    - jimnotgym 4y ago
      I presume these are two unrelated points? Nothing stops the UK seizing crown lands. In fact it sort of does. This is where the sovereign grant comes from. Land however is not generally taxed in the UK so in that sense they do pay the same.
    - stu432 4y ago
      Because they effectively pay 85% tax on the income already. Look up the Crown Estate. The UK government taking it over would result in it being sold off at bargain basement prices to fund a voter winning 5 min fix and there'd be nothing to show for it in 50 years.
- JonChesterfield 4y ago
  Also known as "theft"
  - olddustytrail 4y ago
    No, also known as "tax". Original taxes were always on wealth rather than income. We should go back to that.
  - 4y ago
jwmcq 4y ago
>What's the solution here to get more in taxes? Easy - increase corporation tax. The main rate has been literally halved over the last 30 years.
- jimnotgym 4y ago
  Tax Capital Gains at the same rate as income?
  - midasuni 4y ago
    Not to mention income from retirees. A pensioner on £35k income pays far less in tax than a worker on £35k income.
- JonChesterfield 4y ago
  The thing with that is corporations can defer profits until the rate falls again, while in the mean time you encourage people to open new premises elsewhere. So the take is not remotely linear in the percentage.
theironhammer 4y ago
yason 4y ago
What's the solution here to get more in taxes? The same as usually: increase the taxable base, not the tax percentage. Tax a larger base moderately than trying to out-tax the last dribbles of a dwindling, current economy. To do this, work politically to make it easy and lucrative to do business and increase overall wealth, and make it productive and worthwhile for individuals to get more by working more.
thebruce87m 4y ago
What country in the UK has £15k? I just looked at Scotland and England and they both have £12,570 as the basic threshold.

Glawen 4y ago

Remember that everyone is paying VAT, so yes little income are also taxed

Moissanite 4y ago
I feel like we need a progressive VAT, which differentiates necessities from luxuries. Probably too complex to implement though.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Many countries have progressive VAT. In my country food is half the VAT of consumer goods while medicine and books have zero VAT. It's definitely not that difficult to do.
- stu432 4y ago
  We do already, there's several VAT values, necessities are supposed to be VAT free for instance. Has some quirks in it, so you end up with the Jaffa Cake Vs Biscuit debacle - https://www.astonshaw.co.uk/news/jaffa-cake-tax/#:~:text=The%20significance%20of%20the%20borderline,always%20remain%20exempt%20from%20VAT https://www.astonshaw.co.uk/news/jaffa-cake-tax/#:~:text=The....
  - Moissanite 4y ago
    I was aware of the biscuit thing, but think it should just be rolled out more widely. We sort of have that with luxury cars, but an across the board increase of VAT to 30% on high-end goods is really what going for - defining luxury goods is left as an exercise for the reader.
    - stu432 4y ago
      Pretty comprehensive list here, https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-of-vat-on-different-goods-and-services https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-of-vat-on-different-goods-...
- midasuni 4y ago
  I pay hardly anything in vat other than a few luxuries. Food Rent Public transport No vat on those Electricity is only 5% A few quid a year on vat on toothpaste hardly makes a difference.

Veliladon 4y ago

If only there was some form of large market close by that the UK could be a member of so that the UK could trade with them in a frictionless manner and expand the economies of both areas through trade. That would increase the GDP and hence the amount of money the government could have available to it through taxation. But I don't think there is anything like that around. I mean, if there was, why the hell wouldn't they be lining up to become a member of it? There's only upside there.

cloutchaser 4y ago
Very nice, but the EU is probably going to decline in GDP more than the UK, and the euro could potentially collapse due to the Italy situation in the next few years. Thinking the UKs issues are because of brexit are about as simplistic as saying “tax the rich will solve all the worlds issues”
- jimnotgym 4y ago
  >the EU is probably going to decline in GDP more than the UK Even if that does happen, it doesn't necessarily follow that the UK couldn't also have a higher GDP by trading with the EU >Thinking the UKs issues are because of brexit ... could make you the governor of the Bank of England https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/16/brexit-and-drop-in-workforce-harming-britain-economic-recovery-says-bank-governor https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/16/brexit-and-...
  - sgt101 4y ago
    It doesn't follow, but history post 2016 wasn't written in gold if the UK had stayed in. The north of England, the central belt of Scotland and the south of Wales were in a terrible state. Brexit has failed to help, but remaining almost certainly wouldn't have either. The biggest issue the UK has experienced since leaving is Covid-19. Remaining wouldn't have helped us in that contingency. The UK has blamed Europe for it's ills for 40 years. Remainers/rejoiners are still centered on this - we have to start to look to ourselves. Being in or out of Europe is not at issue; working to build a sustainable national economy and polity is.

hnhg 4y ago

You should say high income earners rather than "the rich" here, to be perfectly accurate. The two are not always the same.

Moissanite 4y ago
Very important for people to understand this. For high earners (100-200k), marginal tax rates can already pass 60%. That is an income which is locally considered very high but compared to our Atlantic cousins is somewhat more normal. I will be thousands of pounds worse off per year under the new tax plans, but I'm OK with that because I understand that it is necessary. However, we are rapidly approaching most people's tolerance limit in this regard; unless the next government does a very good job of tackling economic injustice it feels like people will just give up - at which point the only way is down. Now, what "give up" really looks like is key - I feel like widespread civil unrest is far closer than most people realize, but before that there will be a further decline in social cohesion. Right now it feels like this story is being masked by the Ukraine situation.
- midasuni 4y ago
  Becaus of the “high income child tax” and student loan repayments marginal tax rates at just 50k hit 70%. They drop again at 60k, but it’s tricky to justify working extra hard for a £5k pay rise when you only keep £2k of it. Doesn’t help that you can’t file jointly in the U.K. either.

phphphphp 4y ago

If that’s true, why isn’t that the party line? Every tax-reductionist I’ve heard from talks to the moral crime of high taxation, and the necessity to cut reliance on the government. I have not heard (as a regular person outside of academic circles) any politician argue that reducing taxes will increase revenue. Given how trivial this concept is to validate (cut taxes and see revenue go up) why hasn’t it been implemented? https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan/economy https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan/economy

zpeti 4y ago
Honestly, because since Blair the conservatives have been playing politics in labour's court, and labour's language and labour's politics. There hasn't been a clear and good communicator in the conservative party since... I want to say Thatcher? The facts of this are true. When corp tax decreased from 28% to 20% tax take actually increased. But the conservatives seem unable to communicate this properly. It's sad to be honest. The "science" is there. But blaming the "Tories who want to reduce taxes on the rich and screw you" seems to be the talking point, not facts.

woodruffw 4y ago

> This is such a simplified viewpoint. The UK has never been able to collect more than 39%-40% of GDP in taxes. And that's what the level is at now. Already everyone is paying as much tax as in history. This has a double meaning: (1) “everybody” meaning the whole body, and (2) “everybody” meaning each tax-paying individual. The two are not the same: it can be true that the whole body of taxpayers is paying the same amount (proportionately) into the GDP as always, while more of that proportion comes from the lower and middle classes than it historically has.

jimnotgym 4y ago

One solution is to tax wealth rather than income. That should be popular...

akmarinov 4y ago
Nationalise some royal lands
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  What's stopping the UK government to seize UK land owned by the royal family? Or at least taxing them the same rates as the peasants instead of letting them freeload.
  - jimnotgym 4y ago
    I presume these are two unrelated points? Nothing stops the UK seizing crown lands. In fact it sort of does. This is where the sovereign grant comes from. Land however is not generally taxed in the UK so in that sense they do pay the same.
  - stu432 4y ago
    Because they effectively pay 85% tax on the income already. Look up the Crown Estate. The UK government taking it over would result in it being sold off at bargain basement prices to fund a voter winning 5 min fix and there'd be nothing to show for it in 50 years.
JonChesterfield 4y ago
Also known as "theft"
- olddustytrail 4y ago
  No, also known as "tax". Original taxes were always on wealth rather than income. We should go back to that.
- 4y ago

jwmcq 4y ago

>What's the solution here to get more in taxes? Easy - increase corporation tax. The main rate has been literally halved over the last 30 years.

jimnotgym 4y ago
Tax Capital Gains at the same rate as income?
- midasuni 4y ago
  Not to mention income from retirees. A pensioner on £35k income pays far less in tax than a worker on £35k income.
JonChesterfield 4y ago
The thing with that is corporations can defer profits until the rate falls again, while in the mean time you encourage people to open new premises elsewhere. So the take is not remotely linear in the percentage.

theironhammer 4y ago

yason 4y ago

What's the solution here to get more in taxes? The same as usually: increase the taxable base, not the tax percentage. Tax a larger base moderately than trying to out-tax the last dribbles of a dwindling, current economy. To do this, work politically to make it easy and lucrative to do business and increase overall wealth, and make it productive and worthwhile for individuals to get more by working more.

thebruce87m 4y ago

What country in the UK has £15k? I just looked at Scotland and England and they both have £12,570 as the basic threshold.