5 ms·

Aside from automatic memory management, there is very little evidence of productivity gains from using higher-level languages. $hypedlanguage fanboys can talk u

Aside from automatic memory management, there is very little evidence of productivity gains from using higher-level languages. $hypedlanguage fanboys can talk until your ears bleed about why $hypedlanguage is better than the competition. But invariably they can not cite empirical evidence that support their claims. Furthermore, productivity is much more than just programming language (e.g C sucks, but I got Valgrind now so it sucks less). Those who write OS'es knows this and stick with what works.

sargstuff 4y ago
check out MUMPS! Is this an arguement that writting c to impliment awk, SQL, html/java script using raw X11 to input/output data is easier to do correctly / easier to understand / less buggy than just webassembly compiling gawk and use with standard web browswer features such as html/javascript etc.? Former C stuff is few million lines of code, later is less than a 1000. (including sql & database features in awk). ARC & icon language ports (5th generation programming languages), under a few hundred. The arc & icon language ports would be smaller, but smaller code base means easier to add/impliment user requested features and still keep things 'small/understandable'. Would much rather deal with under a few hundred than the equivalent few million lines of code.
- analognoise 4y ago
  If you rely on a web browser, aren't you still relying on millions of lines of code you're just not counting it?
  - sargstuff 4y ago
    Yes, but where is the focus on effort? Compiling for each possible OS / OS variation in order to run things to support the few hundred lines that actual do what interested in or just the few hundred lines of code that actually do what interested in.
- bjourne 4y ago
  "Aside from automatic memory management" C doesn't have automatic memory management.
  - sargstuff 4y ago
    user/application level or os/runtime level? C doesn't have automatic granular memory management. sbrk, registers and runtime stack are forms of memory management. (unix inodes via pipes, OS envirnment, and files)
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sargstuff 4y ago
Ummm... using compiler to dump the assembly of basic c program: #include <stdio.h> main () { } results in around 800k - 1.5mill individual lines of assemble necessary to do bookkeeping before/after the program runs. Writing this for each specific os / hardware situation (even in general case), would seem like a big waste of time vs. having the compiler generate it.
- analognoise 4y ago
  Try adding -nostdlib, right? You can tell the compiler to do none of the standard bookkeeping (someone who actually writes OSes will probably correct me)
  - sargstuff 4y ago
    yeah. :-)
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sargstuff 4y ago

check out MUMPS! Is this an arguement that writting c to impliment awk, SQL, html/java script using raw X11 to input/output data is easier to do correctly / easier to understand / less buggy than just webassembly compiling gawk and use with standard web browswer features such as html/javascript etc.? Former C stuff is few million lines of code, later is less than a 1000. (including sql & database features in awk). ARC & icon language ports (5th generation programming languages), under a few hundred. The arc & icon language ports would be smaller, but smaller code base means easier to add/impliment user requested features and still keep things 'small/understandable'. Would much rather deal with under a few hundred than the equivalent few million lines of code.

analognoise 4y ago
If you rely on a web browser, aren't you still relying on millions of lines of code you're just not counting it?
- sargstuff 4y ago
  Yes, but where is the focus on effort? Compiling for each possible OS / OS variation in order to run things to support the few hundred lines that actual do what interested in or just the few hundred lines of code that actually do what interested in.
bjourne 4y ago
"Aside from automatic memory management" C doesn't have automatic memory management.
- sargstuff 4y ago
  user/application level or os/runtime level? C doesn't have automatic granular memory management. sbrk, registers and runtime stack are forms of memory management. (unix inodes via pipes, OS envirnment, and files)

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sargstuff 4y ago

Ummm... using compiler to dump the assembly of basic c program: #include <stdio.h> main () { } results in around 800k - 1.5mill individual lines of assemble necessary to do bookkeeping before/after the program runs. Writing this for each specific os / hardware situation (even in general case), would seem like a big waste of time vs. having the compiler generate it.

analognoise 4y ago
Try adding -nostdlib, right? You can tell the compiler to do none of the standard bookkeeping (someone who actually writes OSes will probably correct me)
- sargstuff 4y ago
  yeah. :-)

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