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I still can't believe we don't have an explanation of why they can't match Samsung and TSMC in node size despite all 3 using ASML machines to do the lithography

I still can't believe we don't have an explanation of why they can't match Samsung and TSMC in node size despite all 3 using ASML machines to do the lithography. Outside of the lithography machines which are all the same what is Intel doing wrong in terms of industrial process? Is it the pellicle which I know does vary by manufacturer? Why haven't they adapted by now?

wmf 4y ago
The equipment is a small part of the fab process; the materials and process steps are critical and every fab is a little different. For example, Intel has been using cobalt wires while others use copper; this may or may not have contributed to Intel's problems.
- AnotherGoodName 4y ago
  I do understand that but I still want to know some specific examples. I'm expecting stories to come out at some point in the future of dysfunction that's preventing Intel from simply implementing similar processes as their competitors. And yes I understand the competitors probably have trade secrets but they've been at least a step behind in process for so long now. 14nm when others had 7nm and just starting 7nm when others have 5nm. Hell there's already some 3nm TSMC stuff coming. The whole ++++++++ debacle was ridiculous. At this point there has to be some major dysfunction. Are there senior people there with pet projects and adamant viewpoints that can't change? I'm expecting something along the lines of an execs insisting that cobalt conductors and liquid pellicles are the only way despite competitors kicking their ass by doing it differently. And if there are such stories to be told I'm rather shocked that no one at Intel's addressing the issues. There's probably a book to be written here, similar to the stories told about Atari and Apple dysfunctions back in the day.
  - wmf 4y ago
    I wouldn't be surprised if they got stuck in a cycle of thinking that fixing the existing process would be faster than designing a "plan B" process.
  - xenadu02 4y ago
    They spent years being 1-2 process nodes ahead of everyone else with excellent execution. Anyone within the organization trying to sound alarm bells would have been silenced or ignored... after all they pulled the rabbit out of the hat so many times before, why would this one be different? As for specifics I doubt we'll get many. Chip manufacturing is famously super-secretive and has a culture of not discussing the details - even for old process nodes.
tenebrisalietum 4y ago
I think something I heard somewhere is that Intel's processes are heavily customized for Intel, but I have no data to back that up.
ksec 4y ago
What explanation? Lithography is only a small part of the whole Foundry process. It is not like Samsung and TSMC are the same either. Outside of TSMC, Samsung still hasn't perfected their node on EUV. And Intel, is still on the waiting list, skipping right ahead to High-NA EUV. With their N4 and N5 on a very short term. People often think ASML are like convenience store where they could go and buy one right now. When in fact even if you have the money approved today ( which in itself takes a long time in a large company ) you will still be on the waiting list for 2 years or longer. You will then need another year for them to ship enough machines for you to ship your product.

wmf 4y ago

The equipment is a small part of the fab process; the materials and process steps are critical and every fab is a little different. For example, Intel has been using cobalt wires while others use copper; this may or may not have contributed to Intel's problems.

AnotherGoodName 4y ago
I do understand that but I still want to know some specific examples. I'm expecting stories to come out at some point in the future of dysfunction that's preventing Intel from simply implementing similar processes as their competitors. And yes I understand the competitors probably have trade secrets but they've been at least a step behind in process for so long now. 14nm when others had 7nm and just starting 7nm when others have 5nm. Hell there's already some 3nm TSMC stuff coming. The whole ++++++++ debacle was ridiculous. At this point there has to be some major dysfunction. Are there senior people there with pet projects and adamant viewpoints that can't change? I'm expecting something along the lines of an execs insisting that cobalt conductors and liquid pellicles are the only way despite competitors kicking their ass by doing it differently. And if there are such stories to be told I'm rather shocked that no one at Intel's addressing the issues. There's probably a book to be written here, similar to the stories told about Atari and Apple dysfunctions back in the day.
- wmf 4y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if they got stuck in a cycle of thinking that fixing the existing process would be faster than designing a "plan B" process.
- xenadu02 4y ago
  They spent years being 1-2 process nodes ahead of everyone else with excellent execution. Anyone within the organization trying to sound alarm bells would have been silenced or ignored... after all they pulled the rabbit out of the hat so many times before, why would this one be different? As for specifics I doubt we'll get many. Chip manufacturing is famously super-secretive and has a culture of not discussing the details - even for old process nodes.

tenebrisalietum 4y ago

I think something I heard somewhere is that Intel's processes are heavily customized for Intel, but I have no data to back that up.

ksec 4y ago

What explanation? Lithography is only a small part of the whole Foundry process. It is not like Samsung and TSMC are the same either. Outside of TSMC, Samsung still hasn't perfected their node on EUV. And Intel, is still on the waiting list, skipping right ahead to High-NA EUV. With their N4 and N5 on a very short term. People often think ASML are like convenience store where they could go and buy one right now. When in fact even if you have the money approved today ( which in itself takes a long time in a large company ) you will still be on the waiting list for 2 years or longer. You will then need another year for them to ship enough machines for you to ship your product.