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What’s the fossil fuel burn of Bank of America’a entire IT and anti-fraud department? I don’t care about the merits of bitcoin, but these simplistic crude and

What’s the fossil fuel burn of Bank of America’a entire IT and anti-fraud department? I don’t care about the merits of bitcoin, but these simplistic crude and inaccurate legislation attempts are fundamentally market distorting and inefficient and restrict our rights.

polygamous_bat 4y ago
Whatever it is, I'm sure it's orders of magnitude more sustainable per transaction than the mighty 7 transaction per seconds of Bitcoin.
- taolegal 4y ago
  Ok looks like you're going to judge bitcoin on its transaction capacity. There's nearly an infinite number of transactions that can occur nearly instantaneously on L2 with the lightning network for example.
  - polygamous_bat 4y ago
    Ok, since you are such a big fan of lightning network, can you help me with some quick maths? Imagine we get everyone on the world to adopt Bitcoin + lightning. That means we need to open at least one payment channel for each person. How long would it take to create just that one payment channel per person, if we ignore all other transactions in the Bitcoin blockchain? [Spoiler: it's more than 30 years just for onboarding, for those who are curious. For the unaffiliated bystanders, next time you hear "Lightning network solves all issues, layer 2!" chant from the cult, remember that Bitcoin is still a tired old database at the bottom of it that is still looking for a problem to solve.]
    - taolegal 4y ago
      Lightning works and it's easy for anyone to start using it now. Whether you want to discount it cause it can't immediately onboard the entirety of humanity within an arbitrarily short timeframe is just nitpicking because there certainly will be a protocol capable of achieving that absurd high bar for a trust-less blockchain. Spoiler: eltoo & an upgrade with SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUT along with channel factories seems perfectly capable.
      - polygamous_bat 4y ago
        > Lightning works and it's easy for anyone But it will NEVER work for everyone. > you want to discount it cause it can't immediately onboard the entirety of humanity within an arbitrarily short timeframe is The "arbitrarily short" timeframe is 30 years. That seems kinda long to me. But then again I keep hearing "We're still early!" after 13 years of Bitcoin, so maybe you guys are targeting sometimes next century, in which case, my apologies. Oh, and also, it's not _just_ to onboard, it's the first transaction. Anytime you want to settle, close a channel, create a new one, it's the same congestion. Unless you propose people initiate a channel for their newborn so the kid can eventually start using lightning when they get their third real job at 30? That _could_ work, hmm. > there certainly will be a protocol capable of achieving that absurd high bar for a trust-less blockchain "My project is gonna be working by the time for the final! I swear!" stopped working for me when I graduated high school and entered what some may call the real life. Seems cute that it's still alive and well in the crypto fantasy land to judge things by the publicity pieces instead of what they actually are. Anyway, I'm not nitpicking. I'm punching holes through your tired arguments about an inefficient database and how it's the savior of humanity (just to pump up your coinz.) To all knee deep bitcoiner, please understand that your future of finance wet dream doesn't actually ever scale to 1% of what's needed, stop burning fossil fuel, and find a new hobby, ffs.
        taolegal 4y ago
        > stopped working for me when I graduated high school and entered what some may call the real life > future of finance wet dream doesn't actually ever scale to 1% of what's needed, stop burning fossil fuel, and find a new hobby, ffs This just seems needlessly vitriolic rather than a substantive argument. I gave you a protocol that doesn't "take 30 years" and you say it's a pipe dream.
miroljub 4y ago
> What’s the fossil fuel burn of Bank of America’a entire IT and anti-fraud department? That brings quite a value. Without anti-fraud measures, you wouldn't have a monetary system.
- polygamous_bat 4y ago
  Unfortunately, an apt description for people shilling alternate monetary systems that I once read was: "For them, the largest problem with the banking crisis of 2008 was that they didn't have a finger in the pie." I often think the lack of anti-fraud features may be a feature and not a bug.
lightedman 4y ago
To quote from BofA's site: "We also are making our operations more sustainable – including achieving carbon neutrality and procuring 100% renewable electricity in 2019, a year ahead of schedule." Drastically lower than Bitcoin if this is anything to go by. So low you might as well put BofA into a fossil fuel burn limbo contest. Given that result took less than three seconds of searching, I'm wondering if you have an ulterior motive in targeting BofA specifically.
- texasbigdata 4y ago
  They’re just big, no real ulterior motive.

polygamous_bat 4y ago

Whatever it is, I'm sure it's orders of magnitude more sustainable per transaction than the mighty 7 transaction per seconds of Bitcoin.

taolegal 4y ago
Ok looks like you're going to judge bitcoin on its transaction capacity. There's nearly an infinite number of transactions that can occur nearly instantaneously on L2 with the lightning network for example.
- polygamous_bat 4y ago
  Ok, since you are such a big fan of lightning network, can you help me with some quick maths? Imagine we get everyone on the world to adopt Bitcoin + lightning. That means we need to open at least one payment channel for each person. How long would it take to create just that one payment channel per person, if we ignore all other transactions in the Bitcoin blockchain? [Spoiler: it's more than 30 years just for onboarding, for those who are curious. For the unaffiliated bystanders, next time you hear "Lightning network solves all issues, layer 2!" chant from the cult, remember that Bitcoin is still a tired old database at the bottom of it that is still looking for a problem to solve.]
  - taolegal 4y ago
    Lightning works and it's easy for anyone to start using it now. Whether you want to discount it cause it can't immediately onboard the entirety of humanity within an arbitrarily short timeframe is just nitpicking because there certainly will be a protocol capable of achieving that absurd high bar for a trust-less blockchain. Spoiler: eltoo & an upgrade with SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUT along with channel factories seems perfectly capable.
    - polygamous_bat 4y ago
      > Lightning works and it's easy for anyone But it will NEVER work for everyone. > you want to discount it cause it can't immediately onboard the entirety of humanity within an arbitrarily short timeframe is The "arbitrarily short" timeframe is 30 years. That seems kinda long to me. But then again I keep hearing "We're still early!" after 13 years of Bitcoin, so maybe you guys are targeting sometimes next century, in which case, my apologies. Oh, and also, it's not _just_ to onboard, it's the first transaction. Anytime you want to settle, close a channel, create a new one, it's the same congestion. Unless you propose people initiate a channel for their newborn so the kid can eventually start using lightning when they get their third real job at 30? That _could_ work, hmm. > there certainly will be a protocol capable of achieving that absurd high bar for a trust-less blockchain "My project is gonna be working by the time for the final! I swear!" stopped working for me when I graduated high school and entered what some may call the real life. Seems cute that it's still alive and well in the crypto fantasy land to judge things by the publicity pieces instead of what they actually are. Anyway, I'm not nitpicking. I'm punching holes through your tired arguments about an inefficient database and how it's the savior of humanity (just to pump up your coinz.) To all knee deep bitcoiner, please understand that your future of finance wet dream doesn't actually ever scale to 1% of what's needed, stop burning fossil fuel, and find a new hobby, ffs.
      - taolegal 4y ago
        > stopped working for me when I graduated high school and entered what some may call the real life > future of finance wet dream doesn't actually ever scale to 1% of what's needed, stop burning fossil fuel, and find a new hobby, ffs This just seems needlessly vitriolic rather than a substantive argument. I gave you a protocol that doesn't "take 30 years" and you say it's a pipe dream.

miroljub 4y ago

> What’s the fossil fuel burn of Bank of America’a entire IT and anti-fraud department? That brings quite a value. Without anti-fraud measures, you wouldn't have a monetary system.

polygamous_bat 4y ago
Unfortunately, an apt description for people shilling alternate monetary systems that I once read was: "For them, the largest problem with the banking crisis of 2008 was that they didn't have a finger in the pie." I often think the lack of anti-fraud features may be a feature and not a bug.

lightedman 4y ago

To quote from BofA's site: "We also are making our operations more sustainable – including achieving carbon neutrality and procuring 100% renewable electricity in 2019, a year ahead of schedule." Drastically lower than Bitcoin if this is anything to go by. So low you might as well put BofA into a fossil fuel burn limbo contest. Given that result took less than three seconds of searching, I'm wondering if you have an ulterior motive in targeting BofA specifically.

texasbigdata 4y ago
They’re just big, no real ulterior motive.