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I don't understand why this is legal. First how is it not false advertisement that a feature called "Full Self-Driving" isn't that? This isn't a marketing mista

I don't understand why this is legal. First how is it not false advertisement that a feature called "Full Self-Driving" isn't that? This isn't a marketing mistake, it is lying to users about what this technology does. Second why doesn't Tesla have to submit to some sort of third-party independent verification that this software works? Why does Elon, who has demonstrated over the last month his absolute contempt for his fellow humans, get to decide that I am now an unwilling member of their beta testing as someone who shares the road with Teslas? How dangerous is the software, how often does it make mistakes, what has been done to correct known errors and limitations of relying exclusively on cameras, all of this should be in the public record and independently verified. What's the logic here? Elon and Tesla, whose entire stock price and financial fortunes are based on this technology working as advertised, are going to pull the plug if the results aren't up to an acceptable level of safety? Why would we think either party would ever do that?

Dah00n 4y ago
>Second why doesn't Tesla have to submit to some sort of third-party independent verification that this software works That is the law in the EU but all currently driven Teslas that have been updated in areas that change steering, braking, power, safety features, etc. have the same problem. They haven't been re-approved either and are by definition illegal to drive but rules and laws are there to be ignored after all. I couldn't make changes to my car or motorcycles in those areas if I wanted them to pass a test (like a MOT test) but I'm not a US owned company that you need hundreds of lawyers to even dare look at. You don't even need to activate FSD to make the car illegal to drive. Just add a few extra HP or upgrade the brakes (hardware or software) and that's it it.
loppt 4y ago
> I don't understand why this is legal. Our current elites do not want lesser humans to make autonomous decisions, hence the push for the technology and the absence of regulations. We are supposed to be passive, sit in a car while tweeting and be surveilled and tracked 24/7. (In the case of Tesla, having excellent connections to subsidies, DARPA, as well as providing Starlink Internet to crisis regions with plausible deniability could help, too.)
Isinlor 4y ago
Tesla is being controlled by NHTSA. But overall you can blame / be happy about USA/Canada legislation and regulators. There is no way that they could release it so easily in EU, but this is also why all startups and big tech companies are in USA.
jiriro 4y ago
I don’t understand the demand for “legality”. FSD is like a driver with a fresh license - both are a little dangerous in the beginning but both will get better over time. Also the FSD’s promise (be it Tesla or anyone else) is so far reaching that this “a little dangerous in the beginning“ is worth some elaboration. Just imagine reading a book in a self driving car and thinking about a new generation of self driving:-)
- Isinlor 4y ago
  I would say that FSD is like a driver who still learns to drive in order to obtain driving license. There also needs to be someone who watches over them :) .
- Someone1234 4y ago
  But that fresh licensed driver is still liable for their mistakes, even deadly ones, is Tesla accepting legal liability for mistakes that occur while "FSD" is enabled? And by that I do also include accidents and injuries that occurred even if "FSD" shuts itself off a few seconds before it hits the diver/bollard/stopped fire truck/etc.
- piva00 4y ago
  > I don’t understand the demand for “legality”. FSD is like a driver with a fresh license - both are a little dangerous in the beginning but both will get better over time. Liability is the answer here, the driver is liable and so needs to adjust their risk-taking because of possible consequences. FSD failures has no consequences to the responsible party (Tesla and other automakers, etc.) if legality isn't in question. > Also the FSD’s promise (be it Tesla or anyone else) is so far reaching that this “a little dangerous in the beginning“ is worth some elaboration. What do you mean worth some elaboration? So elaborate on it, not sure if you stated what you meant. Even then, I'm a user of the road and I've not been asked to participate in Tesla's or any automakers experiments, this is a public good, used by real people everyday, not some laboratory to be experimented on and tweak your experiment accordingly. If someone you love is killed by a FSD failure in public roads, would you still defend it? And I know that appealing to this emotional side might sound like an exaggeration but this is what might happen to someone else, someone they love might be killed by this experiment, are you willing to accept that damage to be done to your family in name of progress of a proprietary technology being developed for profit? > Just imagine reading a book in a self driving car and thinking about a new generation of self driving:-) I don't want to be in a self-driving car reading a book, why would I need that if I have access to trains carrying me faster than any car could on a road and when I can hail a cab for the last stretch if that isn't served by any mass transportation system? Things that aren't just existing technology but also much more environmentally friendly than having 1 car per person or household? I dream of a world with less need of cars, with less cars taking space in city centres. Cars brought us far but also has shown us that aren't sustainable for the longer term (next centuries), I don't dream about having a car that drives me around, it sounds quite dystopian to be honest.
mendigou 4y ago
A little off-topic, but: I just found out about Comma.ai and... is it really legal in the US? I know it wouldn't be in most (all?) EU countries, as modifications to the vehicle require certification by a professional engineer. It's kind of terrifying that anyone can modify their vehicle as they please and drive it on the road with everyone else.
- Fatnino 4y ago
  Modifications are the least of our worries when there are actual nut jobs sitting behind the wheel of completely stock cars.

Dah00n 4y ago

>Second why doesn't Tesla have to submit to some sort of third-party independent verification that this software works That is the law in the EU but all currently driven Teslas that have been updated in areas that change steering, braking, power, safety features, etc. have the same problem. They haven't been re-approved either and are by definition illegal to drive but rules and laws are there to be ignored after all. I couldn't make changes to my car or motorcycles in those areas if I wanted them to pass a test (like a MOT test) but I'm not a US owned company that you need hundreds of lawyers to even dare look at. You don't even need to activate FSD to make the car illegal to drive. Just add a few extra HP or upgrade the brakes (hardware or software) and that's it it.

loppt 4y ago

> I don't understand why this is legal. Our current elites do not want lesser humans to make autonomous decisions, hence the push for the technology and the absence of regulations. We are supposed to be passive, sit in a car while tweeting and be surveilled and tracked 24/7. (In the case of Tesla, having excellent connections to subsidies, DARPA, as well as providing Starlink Internet to crisis regions with plausible deniability could help, too.)

Isinlor 4y ago

Tesla is being controlled by NHTSA. But overall you can blame / be happy about USA/Canada legislation and regulators. There is no way that they could release it so easily in EU, but this is also why all startups and big tech companies are in USA.

jiriro 4y ago

I don’t understand the demand for “legality”. FSD is like a driver with a fresh license - both are a little dangerous in the beginning but both will get better over time. Also the FSD’s promise (be it Tesla or anyone else) is so far reaching that this “a little dangerous in the beginning“ is worth some elaboration. Just imagine reading a book in a self driving car and thinking about a new generation of self driving:-)

Isinlor 4y ago
I would say that FSD is like a driver who still learns to drive in order to obtain driving license. There also needs to be someone who watches over them :) .
Someone1234 4y ago
But that fresh licensed driver is still liable for their mistakes, even deadly ones, is Tesla accepting legal liability for mistakes that occur while "FSD" is enabled? And by that I do also include accidents and injuries that occurred even if "FSD" shuts itself off a few seconds before it hits the diver/bollard/stopped fire truck/etc.
piva00 4y ago
> I don’t understand the demand for “legality”. FSD is like a driver with a fresh license - both are a little dangerous in the beginning but both will get better over time. Liability is the answer here, the driver is liable and so needs to adjust their risk-taking because of possible consequences. FSD failures has no consequences to the responsible party (Tesla and other automakers, etc.) if legality isn't in question. > Also the FSD’s promise (be it Tesla or anyone else) is so far reaching that this “a little dangerous in the beginning“ is worth some elaboration. What do you mean worth some elaboration? So elaborate on it, not sure if you stated what you meant. Even then, I'm a user of the road and I've not been asked to participate in Tesla's or any automakers experiments, this is a public good, used by real people everyday, not some laboratory to be experimented on and tweak your experiment accordingly. If someone you love is killed by a FSD failure in public roads, would you still defend it? And I know that appealing to this emotional side might sound like an exaggeration but this is what might happen to someone else, someone they love might be killed by this experiment, are you willing to accept that damage to be done to your family in name of progress of a proprietary technology being developed for profit? > Just imagine reading a book in a self driving car and thinking about a new generation of self driving:-) I don't want to be in a self-driving car reading a book, why would I need that if I have access to trains carrying me faster than any car could on a road and when I can hail a cab for the last stretch if that isn't served by any mass transportation system? Things that aren't just existing technology but also much more environmentally friendly than having 1 car per person or household? I dream of a world with less need of cars, with less cars taking space in city centres. Cars brought us far but also has shown us that aren't sustainable for the longer term (next centuries), I don't dream about having a car that drives me around, it sounds quite dystopian to be honest.

mendigou 4y ago

A little off-topic, but: I just found out about Comma.ai and... is it really legal in the US? I know it wouldn't be in most (all?) EU countries, as modifications to the vehicle require certification by a professional engineer. It's kind of terrifying that anyone can modify their vehicle as they please and drive it on the road with everyone else.

Fatnino 4y ago
Modifications are the least of our worries when there are actual nut jobs sitting behind the wheel of completely stock cars.