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> upset about was the growing reliance on .. Then he would have freaked out over smart phones. I've first hand seen what happens to e.g. sense of direction onc

> upset about was the growing reliance on .. Then he would have freaked out over smart phones. I've first hand seen what happens to e.g. sense of direction once use of the navigator-assist becomes habitual. Some auxiliary mental muscle atrophies in the brain.

tppiotrowski 4y ago
Riding a bike with GPS leads me to more retention. My theory is that it's the driving speed and number of other drivers on the road that prevents our brain from retaining a route.
- eternalban 4y ago
  Can't be because it is too much info to process, imo. Possibly visual cues are diminished because you are spending more time keeping an eye on immediate (but generic) spatial environment.
tshaddox 4y ago
Is there evidence that this oft-cited claim about using turn-by-turn directions is inevitable (or even true at all, for that matter). I have a decent sense of direction, but I still use turn-by-turn directions routinely both for unfamiliar areas, and for familiar areas because of traffic information. A sense of direction doesn’t really help with tricky exits, one way streets, etc. or with real-time traffic info.
- guelo 4y ago
  I don't have evidence just my personal annecdote, but it's such a crutch for me that I sometimes feel embarrased that I can't seem to get around my town of 20 years without punching everything into google maps. What I've started doing is still doing turn-by-turn but putting Google Maps into the fixed North compass mode. It's not quite as convenient but it gives me much more of a sense of direction, kind of like the mini-map in a 3d game.
  - sigkill 4y ago
    For some reason, every thing is a video game to me, so I'm always trying to "pathfind" different routes, and calculate... for the lack of better word, weights each road has at different times of the day. Makes it pretty quick to remember them. Regardless of where or how I am, I'm mentally always aware of what approximate direction North is.
- tbrownaw 4y ago
  I like to check the upcoming directions against my surroundings -- ok I turn at the light after next, where is that visually right now and what distinctive things are before it. Which turns out to be pretty close to the same shape as at least one method for studying new topics.
boredemployee 4y ago
I have mixed feelings about what you said. since I feel more comfident to navigate in big cities or unknown places with a navigator-assistant, my brain end up wiring new geographical places. But I kinda agree
wruza 4y ago
You’d be fine navigating his Athens, it was 1.5 km in diameter. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_ancient_athens.png https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_ancient_athens...
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  Ancient cities used to be a maze of narrow alleys with just a few major arteries going through them. A city 1,5 km in diameter built in this way is still quite confusing. Also, Athens (Piraeus) was a major port and therefore had to have a nontrivial share of strangers roaming the streets.
Broken_Hippo 4y ago
You right this like people were born with some sort of innate ability, while my personal experience is that using a gas station toilet means that I have to get my bearings. I, as an adult in my mid 40's, have to actually think about which is my right and left. I also lived without a gps of any sort for most of my life: Before gps, I printed directions. Before that, I relied on maps when I could or just got lost. A navigator of some sort means that I can make up for this shortcoming and that I can explore. It isn't perfect, but much better than my brain does on its own.
- sixstringtheory 4y ago
  Interesting, I consider myself to have a really good sense of direction, I can reliably locate north in a city or wilderness (with decent weather) without a compass, and can cognitively map complicated sequences of directions involving left/right turns w.r.t. cardinal direction. I do use directions in unfamiliar terrain but once I memorize, I no longer need them and I can usually improvise in nearby areas. I also sort of make it a game to get lost sometimes and find my way out, and that exercise helps me learn places too. Also also, I have always loved reading maps, I just kind of get lost in them as a pastime. However, I still have to use mnemonics to remember which side is port vs starboard (my mnemonic for this is that when facing the bow, aka forwards, port is on the left, because they both have four letters). I imagine this is what you experience when you say you have to think about right vs left, is that pretty close? Fun little anecdote, my cousin had “right” and “left” tattooed on their wrists because they will forget otherwise. At first I found that unbelievable, but I’ve come to realize how different people can be over the years.
  - williamcotton 4y ago
    I have a good sense of direction and always did well with orienteering in the Boy Scouts… and I still have to actively think about right and left, especially when someone quickly says “turn left here!” when driving.
  - Broken_Hippo 4y ago
    * I imagine this is what you experience when you say you have to think about right vs left, is that pretty close?* If I pay attention, I can feel my heartbeat. I know that is my left side.

tppiotrowski 4y ago

Riding a bike with GPS leads me to more retention. My theory is that it's the driving speed and number of other drivers on the road that prevents our brain from retaining a route.

eternalban 4y ago
Can't be because it is too much info to process, imo. Possibly visual cues are diminished because you are spending more time keeping an eye on immediate (but generic) spatial environment.

tshaddox 4y ago

Is there evidence that this oft-cited claim about using turn-by-turn directions is inevitable (or even true at all, for that matter). I have a decent sense of direction, but I still use turn-by-turn directions routinely both for unfamiliar areas, and for familiar areas because of traffic information. A sense of direction doesn’t really help with tricky exits, one way streets, etc. or with real-time traffic info.

guelo 4y ago
I don't have evidence just my personal annecdote, but it's such a crutch for me that I sometimes feel embarrased that I can't seem to get around my town of 20 years without punching everything into google maps. What I've started doing is still doing turn-by-turn but putting Google Maps into the fixed North compass mode. It's not quite as convenient but it gives me much more of a sense of direction, kind of like the mini-map in a 3d game.
- sigkill 4y ago
  For some reason, every thing is a video game to me, so I'm always trying to "pathfind" different routes, and calculate... for the lack of better word, weights each road has at different times of the day. Makes it pretty quick to remember them. Regardless of where or how I am, I'm mentally always aware of what approximate direction North is.
tbrownaw 4y ago
I like to check the upcoming directions against my surroundings -- ok I turn at the light after next, where is that visually right now and what distinctive things are before it. Which turns out to be pretty close to the same shape as at least one method for studying new topics.

boredemployee 4y ago

I have mixed feelings about what you said. since I feel more comfident to navigate in big cities or unknown places with a navigator-assistant, my brain end up wiring new geographical places. But I kinda agree

wruza 4y ago

You’d be fine navigating his Athens, it was 1.5 km in diameter. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_ancient_athens.png https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_ancient_athens...

inglor_cz 4y ago
Ancient cities used to be a maze of narrow alleys with just a few major arteries going through them. A city 1,5 km in diameter built in this way is still quite confusing. Also, Athens (Piraeus) was a major port and therefore had to have a nontrivial share of strangers roaming the streets.

Broken_Hippo 4y ago

You right this like people were born with some sort of innate ability, while my personal experience is that using a gas station toilet means that I have to get my bearings. I, as an adult in my mid 40's, have to actually think about which is my right and left. I also lived without a gps of any sort for most of my life: Before gps, I printed directions. Before that, I relied on maps when I could or just got lost. A navigator of some sort means that I can make up for this shortcoming and that I can explore. It isn't perfect, but much better than my brain does on its own.

sixstringtheory 4y ago
Interesting, I consider myself to have a really good sense of direction, I can reliably locate north in a city or wilderness (with decent weather) without a compass, and can cognitively map complicated sequences of directions involving left/right turns w.r.t. cardinal direction. I do use directions in unfamiliar terrain but once I memorize, I no longer need them and I can usually improvise in nearby areas. I also sort of make it a game to get lost sometimes and find my way out, and that exercise helps me learn places too. Also also, I have always loved reading maps, I just kind of get lost in them as a pastime. However, I still have to use mnemonics to remember which side is port vs starboard (my mnemonic for this is that when facing the bow, aka forwards, port is on the left, because they both have four letters). I imagine this is what you experience when you say you have to think about right vs left, is that pretty close? Fun little anecdote, my cousin had “right” and “left” tattooed on their wrists because they will forget otherwise. At first I found that unbelievable, but I’ve come to realize how different people can be over the years.
- williamcotton 4y ago
  I have a good sense of direction and always did well with orienteering in the Boy Scouts… and I still have to actively think about right and left, especially when someone quickly says “turn left here!” when driving.
- Broken_Hippo 4y ago
  * I imagine this is what you experience when you say you have to think about right vs left, is that pretty close?* If I pay attention, I can feel my heartbeat. I know that is my left side.