5 ms·

These things aren't contradictory. Ancient Greek students used wax tablets for taking notes, etc. What Socrates (and Plato and others) were upset about was the

by wahern 4y ago

These things aren't contradictory. Ancient Greek students used wax tablets for taking notes, etc. What Socrates (and Plato and others) were upset about was the growing reliance on permanent writing to displace memorization. For example, giving a speech from notes rather than from memory; or in rhetoric citing to a work without being able to literally recite that part from memory. To the extent writing aided memorization and comprehension, they had no beef. The debate was about the nature of knowledge--whether knowledge could exist independent of an internalized form within the mind--i.e. memorization.

dr_dshiv 4y ago
Beautiful. Do you have more written about Plato or related topics?
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  It’s all in their mind.
  - salawat 4y ago
    Not at all! In fact, the part written in their minds is the part that has tangled with the dialogues and their associated context. Socrates was about the living of philosophy, not merely writing or reading it.
- wahern 4y ago
  For a very in-depth analysis of this topic, see The Art of Memory by Frances Yates. Much of that book is conjectural, and I don't think it ever found much purchase within the scholarly community. (Not because it's outright B.S., I don't think, but rather because the implications aren't particularly interesting to modern scholars of philosophy or history; the conjectures aren't worth proving or disproving.) However, it definitely helped me to contextualize Ancient Greek thought in this area, especially Platonic thought and its effect on subsequent philosophy in the Western tradition. I don't think this aspect of Ancient Greek philosophy or Platonic thought, especially the historical context, is clarified until rather advanced philosophical studies in university, if at all, so when you do you see it discussed or alluded to it's not stated plainly and it be can difficult to recognize. Usually it's just the implications and the more abstract aspects that are discussed, pre-translated into modern terminology and concepts. Memorization was an important technology of the time, and like most technologies it was used (and abused) to analogize and conceptualize abstract processes and phenomena, often to the point of equivocation. Failing to appreciate the role that memorization played back then is like failing to appreciate, for example, how the Internet and social media shape our understanding and debate of culture and politics in the early 21st century; the debates can all seem very esoteric, random, and confusing unless and until you have the historical anchor to contextualize things. Then much of the logic, presumptions, and emphases become easier to understand and translate into more familiar terms; banal even. I'm reminded of this admonition against technological equivocation from a mathematics professor, E.C. Zeeman, discussing the role astronomy as reflected in the Antikythera Mechanism had in shaping ancient thought on the nature of the world: > I would like to conclude by telling a cautionary tale. Let us try and place the Antikythera Mechanism within the global context of ancient Greek thought. Firstly came the astronomers observing the motions of the heavenly bodies and collecting data. Secondly came the mathematicians inventing mathematical notation to describe the motions and fit the data. Thirdly came the technicians making mechanical models to simulate those mathematical constructions, like the Antikythera Mechanism. Fourthly came generations of students who learned their astronomy from these machines. Fifthly came scientists whose imagination had been so blinkered by generations of such learning that they actually believed that this was how the heavens worked. Sixthly came the authorities who insisted upon the received dogma. And so the human race was fooled into accepting the Ptolemaic system for a thousand years. > Today we are in danger of making the same mistake over computers. Our present generation is able to view them with an appropriate skepticism when necessary. But our children's children may be brought up within a society dominated by computers, that they may actually believe this is how our brains work. We do not want the human race to be fooled again for another thousand years. http://zakuski.utsa.edu/~gokhman/ecz/gears_from_the_greeks.pdf http://zakuski.utsa.edu/~gokhman/ecz/gears_from_the_greeks.p...
  - SpaceManNabs 4y ago
    the way that the art of memory talks about tables and charts as mnemonic devices changed my view on note taking forever. I actually heard of this socrates piece when researching the art of memory. was really good timing because that is when that article about google making us dumb came out. Now i look back and laugh.
    - rramadass 4y ago
      >the way that the art of memory talks about tables and charts as mnemonic devices Is this the same book by Frances Yates mentioned by the GP? If so, can you point me to the relevant chapter? I just downloaded the book.
  - CrypticShift 4y ago
    ++1 I believe we should be humbled by how deep the "elite" of some older civilizations may have understood "themselves" and "the human condition". We need to see through all that fossilized blinkered strata, and not just throw it all away. We are so proud of our "information machines" and "neurocognitive psychology" advances. Simple things like "memory" still completely elude us today. You will still have a "tunnel vision" (="fooled again for another thousand years") even if your tunnel (=technology) is grandiose and your vision is precise (=science).
jasonhansel 4y ago
As always, in Plato there are more levels to this. Plato thinks that all true knowledge comes from memory, and that we gain knowledge by "remembering" things we first encountered before birth but have since forgotten. So it makes sense that he would see memory, rather than (even philosophical) writing, as the ultimate source of truth.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Telemakhos 4y ago
  And, he does it in a written dialogue.
  - pelasaco 4y ago
    and if Plato and Xenophon never wrote about him, we wouldn't probably know that he existed
eternalban 4y ago
> upset about was the growing reliance on .. Then he would have freaked out over smart phones. I've first hand seen what happens to e.g. sense of direction once use of the navigator-assist becomes habitual. Some auxiliary mental muscle atrophies in the brain.
- tppiotrowski 4y ago
  Riding a bike with GPS leads me to more retention. My theory is that it's the driving speed and number of other drivers on the road that prevents our brain from retaining a route.
  - eternalban 4y ago
    Can't be because it is too much info to process, imo. Possibly visual cues are diminished because you are spending more time keeping an eye on immediate (but generic) spatial environment.
- tshaddox 4y ago
  Is there evidence that this oft-cited claim about using turn-by-turn directions is inevitable (or even true at all, for that matter). I have a decent sense of direction, but I still use turn-by-turn directions routinely both for unfamiliar areas, and for familiar areas because of traffic information. A sense of direction doesn’t really help with tricky exits, one way streets, etc. or with real-time traffic info.
  - guelo 4y ago
    I don't have evidence just my personal annecdote, but it's such a crutch for me that I sometimes feel embarrased that I can't seem to get around my town of 20 years without punching everything into google maps. What I've started doing is still doing turn-by-turn but putting Google Maps into the fixed North compass mode. It's not quite as convenient but it gives me much more of a sense of direction, kind of like the mini-map in a 3d game.
    - 4y ago
mizzao 4y ago
Nice, the ancient version of using Powerpoint slides instead of good communication.
- Oxidation 4y ago
  I can just imagine a junior politician at the Areopagus with his head down nervously mumbling from a wax tablet, while Socrates rolls his eyes at the public speaking of the "youth of today".
- pelasaco 4y ago
  Nice, the ancient version of "if you use too much GPS you will loose your sense of orientation"
- watwut 4y ago
  Ancient version of old person hating on social and technological change more like.
  - Kamq 4y ago
    In Socrates' defense, the generation after him did lose to Sparta and allow the Thirty Tyrants to come to power. Presumably because the naval plans for the Battle of Aegospotami were written down instead of memorized.
    - watwut 4y ago
      His own students collaborated with Sparta and made that happen. He was kinda neutral, did not participated and did not fought against them. Socrates opponents then kicked Sparta out, suffering and risking torture and death. And they then blamed Socrates teachings for what transpired. (Yes, the court that sentenced him was miscarriage of justice.)
squaredot 4y ago
As my ancient Greek's professor used to say, by looking at the class taking notes: "Why do we write? We write to forget!".
rramadass 4y ago
Well explained! People always jump to simplistic conclusions and forget all the nuances involved. As another example, The Art of Memorization was highly developed in Ancient India in order to preserve and transmit the vast corpus of "Hindu Literature" consisting of Vedas/Puranas/Kavyas/etc. It is quite fascinating to see how important Memorization has been to Human development and progress across centuries. Modern Science has now shown us that Memorization has distinct positive effects on the Brain too. 1) Extensive long-term verbal memory training is associated with brain plasticity : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8102627/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8102627/ 2) A Neuroscientist Explores the "Sanskrit Effect" : https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/a-neuroscientist-explores-the-sanskrit-effect/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/a-neurosci... 3) Navigation-related structural change in the hippocampi of taxi drivers : https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.070039597 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.070039597 4) Cache Cab: Taxi Drivers' Brains Grow to Navigate London's Streets : https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/london-taxi-memory/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/london-taxi-memor...
- kbrkbr 4y ago
  > People always jump to simplistic conclusions and forget all the nuances involved. That looks like a classic Matthew 7:3 - Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
  - rramadass 4y ago
    Not sure what you are trying to say here, but i was pointing out that the grand parent's snarky comment regarding the apparent contradiction between the two submissions just based on the headlines was "simplistic without understanding nuances".
    - kbrkbr 4y ago
      Well, people do not always jump to simplistic conclusions and forget all the nuances involved. I think that makes this part of your reply an example of exactly what it’s criticizing.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by wahern 4y ago

dr_dshiv 4y ago

Beautiful. Do you have more written about Plato or related topics?

Apocryphon 4y ago
It’s all in their mind.
- salawat 4y ago
  Not at all! In fact, the part written in their minds is the part that has tangled with the dialogues and their associated context. Socrates was about the living of philosophy, not merely writing or reading it.
wahern 4y ago
For a very in-depth analysis of this topic, see The Art of Memory by Frances Yates. Much of that book is conjectural, and I don't think it ever found much purchase within the scholarly community. (Not because it's outright B.S., I don't think, but rather because the implications aren't particularly interesting to modern scholars of philosophy or history; the conjectures aren't worth proving or disproving.) However, it definitely helped me to contextualize Ancient Greek thought in this area, especially Platonic thought and its effect on subsequent philosophy in the Western tradition. I don't think this aspect of Ancient Greek philosophy or Platonic thought, especially the historical context, is clarified until rather advanced philosophical studies in university, if at all, so when you do you see it discussed or alluded to it's not stated plainly and it be can difficult to recognize. Usually it's just the implications and the more abstract aspects that are discussed, pre-translated into modern terminology and concepts. Memorization was an important technology of the time, and like most technologies it was used (and abused) to analogize and conceptualize abstract processes and phenomena, often to the point of equivocation. Failing to appreciate the role that memorization played back then is like failing to appreciate, for example, how the Internet and social media shape our understanding and debate of culture and politics in the early 21st century; the debates can all seem very esoteric, random, and confusing unless and until you have the historical anchor to contextualize things. Then much of the logic, presumptions, and emphases become easier to understand and translate into more familiar terms; banal even. I'm reminded of this admonition against technological equivocation from a mathematics professor, E.C. Zeeman, discussing the role astronomy as reflected in the Antikythera Mechanism had in shaping ancient thought on the nature of the world: > I would like to conclude by telling a cautionary tale. Let us try and place the Antikythera Mechanism within the global context of ancient Greek thought. Firstly came the astronomers observing the motions of the heavenly bodies and collecting data. Secondly came the mathematicians inventing mathematical notation to describe the motions and fit the data. Thirdly came the technicians making mechanical models to simulate those mathematical constructions, like the Antikythera Mechanism. Fourthly came generations of students who learned their astronomy from these machines. Fifthly came scientists whose imagination had been so blinkered by generations of such learning that they actually believed that this was how the heavens worked. Sixthly came the authorities who insisted upon the received dogma. And so the human race was fooled into accepting the Ptolemaic system for a thousand years. > Today we are in danger of making the same mistake over computers. Our present generation is able to view them with an appropriate skepticism when necessary. But our children's children may be brought up within a society dominated by computers, that they may actually believe this is how our brains work. We do not want the human race to be fooled again for another thousand years. http://zakuski.utsa.edu/~gokhman/ecz/gears_from_the_greeks.pdf http://zakuski.utsa.edu/~gokhman/ecz/gears_from_the_greeks.p...
- SpaceManNabs 4y ago
  the way that the art of memory talks about tables and charts as mnemonic devices changed my view on note taking forever. I actually heard of this socrates piece when researching the art of memory. was really good timing because that is when that article about google making us dumb came out. Now i look back and laugh.
  - rramadass 4y ago
    >the way that the art of memory talks about tables and charts as mnemonic devices Is this the same book by Frances Yates mentioned by the GP? If so, can you point me to the relevant chapter? I just downloaded the book.
- CrypticShift 4y ago
  ++1 I believe we should be humbled by how deep the "elite" of some older civilizations may have understood "themselves" and "the human condition". We need to see through all that fossilized blinkered strata, and not just throw it all away. We are so proud of our "information machines" and "neurocognitive psychology" advances. Simple things like "memory" still completely elude us today. You will still have a "tunnel vision" (="fooled again for another thousand years") even if your tunnel (=technology) is grandiose and your vision is precise (=science).

jasonhansel 4y ago

As always, in Plato there are more levels to this. Plato thinks that all true knowledge comes from memory, and that we gain knowledge by "remembering" things we first encountered before birth but have since forgotten. So it makes sense that he would see memory, rather than (even philosophical) writing, as the ultimate source of truth.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Telemakhos 4y ago
And, he does it in a written dialogue.
- pelasaco 4y ago
  and if Plato and Xenophon never wrote about him, we wouldn't probably know that he existed

eternalban 4y ago

> upset about was the growing reliance on .. Then he would have freaked out over smart phones. I've first hand seen what happens to e.g. sense of direction once use of the navigator-assist becomes habitual. Some auxiliary mental muscle atrophies in the brain.

tppiotrowski 4y ago
Riding a bike with GPS leads me to more retention. My theory is that it's the driving speed and number of other drivers on the road that prevents our brain from retaining a route.
- eternalban 4y ago
  Can't be because it is too much info to process, imo. Possibly visual cues are diminished because you are spending more time keeping an eye on immediate (but generic) spatial environment.
tshaddox 4y ago
Is there evidence that this oft-cited claim about using turn-by-turn directions is inevitable (or even true at all, for that matter). I have a decent sense of direction, but I still use turn-by-turn directions routinely both for unfamiliar areas, and for familiar areas because of traffic information. A sense of direction doesn’t really help with tricky exits, one way streets, etc. or with real-time traffic info.
- guelo 4y ago
  I don't have evidence just my personal annecdote, but it's such a crutch for me that I sometimes feel embarrased that I can't seem to get around my town of 20 years without punching everything into google maps. What I've started doing is still doing turn-by-turn but putting Google Maps into the fixed North compass mode. It's not quite as convenient but it gives me much more of a sense of direction, kind of like the mini-map in a 3d game.
  - 4y ago

mizzao 4y ago

Nice, the ancient version of using Powerpoint slides instead of good communication.

Oxidation 4y ago
I can just imagine a junior politician at the Areopagus with his head down nervously mumbling from a wax tablet, while Socrates rolls his eyes at the public speaking of the "youth of today".
pelasaco 4y ago
Nice, the ancient version of "if you use too much GPS you will loose your sense of orientation"
watwut 4y ago
Ancient version of old person hating on social and technological change more like.
- Kamq 4y ago
  In Socrates' defense, the generation after him did lose to Sparta and allow the Thirty Tyrants to come to power. Presumably because the naval plans for the Battle of Aegospotami were written down instead of memorized.
  - watwut 4y ago
    His own students collaborated with Sparta and made that happen. He was kinda neutral, did not participated and did not fought against them. Socrates opponents then kicked Sparta out, suffering and risking torture and death. And they then blamed Socrates teachings for what transpired. (Yes, the court that sentenced him was miscarriage of justice.)

squaredot 4y ago

As my ancient Greek's professor used to say, by looking at the class taking notes: "Why do we write? We write to forget!".

rramadass 4y ago

Well explained! People always jump to simplistic conclusions and forget all the nuances involved. As another example, The Art of Memorization was highly developed in Ancient India in order to preserve and transmit the vast corpus of "Hindu Literature" consisting of Vedas/Puranas/Kavyas/etc. It is quite fascinating to see how important Memorization has been to Human development and progress across centuries. Modern Science has now shown us that Memorization has distinct positive effects on the Brain too. 1) Extensive long-term verbal memory training is associated with brain plasticity : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8102627/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8102627/ 2) A Neuroscientist Explores the "Sanskrit Effect" : https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/a-neuroscientist-explores-the-sanskrit-effect/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/a-neurosci... 3) Navigation-related structural change in the hippocampi of taxi drivers : https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.070039597 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.070039597 4) Cache Cab: Taxi Drivers' Brains Grow to Navigate London's Streets : https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/london-taxi-memory/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/london-taxi-memor...

kbrkbr 4y ago
> People always jump to simplistic conclusions and forget all the nuances involved. That looks like a classic Matthew 7:3 - Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
- rramadass 4y ago
  Not sure what you are trying to say here, but i was pointing out that the grand parent's snarky comment regarding the apparent contradiction between the two submissions just based on the headlines was "simplistic without understanding nuances".
  - kbrkbr 4y ago
    Well, people do not always jump to simplistic conclusions and forget all the nuances involved. I think that makes this part of your reply an example of exactly what it’s criticizing.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]