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It’s hard to find any material on Jai. It seems to be a “better C”. Isn’t that what D / Zig try to do? What’s the advantage?

by 3a2d29 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
stephc_int13 4y ago
I think that Jai / Zig / Odin all started around the same time. D is closer to C++ than C, in my opinion. I suspect that Jai was an inspiration for Zig and Odin. Many developers in gamedev circles are still using C or orthodox C++ (C++ without most of the bullshit) but are frustrated by many features and gaps. Short compilation time is one of the big goals, as it is crucial for fast iteration. The goal is simply to have a powerful low-level/system language that is enjoyable to use. Or at least more enjoyable than C++. (the de-facto standard)
- 3a2d29 4y ago
  Right that makes sense. I’m curious if the gaming industry will switch languages, it feels like with the current game engines that it’s heavily entrenched in C and C++. Feels like something like Carbon has the best chance to break in.
  - stephc_int13 4y ago
    Only time will tell. But I think there is an opportunity at this point in time.
  - oxryly1 4y ago
    A chunk has already switched to C# with Unity. Most other engines (proprietary, Unreal, etc) have decades of C++ that would require too much effort to migrate to anything new.
    - cmovq 4y ago
      Unity is still written in C++. It's fairly common to write the core engine in C++ and use a language like Lua, or as is more common in AAA, some proprietary scripting language for gameplay code.
      - 3a2d29 4y ago
        Interesting. I heard the Civilization games were Lua, didn’t know that was more common.
        TheCycoONE 4y ago
        Quite common: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lua_(programming_language)-scripted_video_games https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lua_(programming_la... I work on CorsixTH as a hobby which is also c++ and lua.
        int_19h 4y ago
        This kind of thing in general is very common and goes back decades, it's just that the languages used to be custom (QuakeC, UnrealScript etc) before the industry largely standardized around Lua. Some older games also experimented with Python for this, and I recall even seeing Tcl once.
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        Unity core, written by Unity employees, customers use C#, that is a big difference. Also since Burst got mature, many C++ modules are slowly being rewritten in C#/Burst subset.
  - bartwe 4y ago
    There are a number of Rust projects happening, but not overtaking c++ any time soon.
- bachmeier 4y ago
  > D is closer to C++ than C, in my opinion. In terms of what the language allows you to do, yes. However, if you're a C programmer, you can pretty much just keep writing the same code you've always written (minus the preprocessor, thankfully). You can even compile C code with the D compiler and call those functions from your D code without doing anything further. That's definitely not the case with C++.
  - moonchild 4y ago
    Oh, come on now. I'm no C++ apologist, but you can do both of those things in C++ as well as in D.
    - bachmeier 4y ago
      I meant you can't do things like compile C++ code directly into your D project.
  - SilentLambda 4y ago
    D is not at all like C++. D is D. You only need to compare how C++ and D treat a class type, and you know straight away they are miles apart (I prefer C++ in this regard). D has a subset, and that subset is more like C - pretty much cause that subset is C. That can be interesting to use, since it's like C with modules. But don't be fooled. D is not like C++. I wish people would stop saying as such, cause it's not at all true.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      You're right, in many areas it is more powerfull than C++23 is. As for classes, just pretend you are using structs in C++, and use structs in D.
- hsn915 4y ago
  If you can find very old Jai videos on YouTube, you can find the creator of Odin was one of the early people excited about the project. I suppose if the development of Jai was made more in the open/public, Odin would probably not have existed. That said, I'm glad Odin exists.
  - BaculumMeumEst 4y ago
    You can find the creator of Zig in those videos as well
    - mariusor 4y ago
      I think that even if Jai didn't directly inspire Odin and Zig, seeing Jon's enthusiasm for his new language influenced GingerBill and Andrew Kelley in their work. This is only the conjecture of someone on the side, but the timeline fits pretty well in my opinion.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  > D is closer to C++ than C I'd put C++ as being between C and D, as D leaves a lot of things behind like the preprocessor.
  - SilentLambda 4y ago
    .. you forgot to mention also, that (in the context of a D module) D stops treating a user-defined class-type as real type. Additionally, a D class is a reference type. Whereas in C++, a class type is a real type (treated as any built-in type), and is a value type (by default). Nor does D have a concept of C++ friend. So even when it comes to classes, C++ and D are miles apart.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      D structs are value types, D classes are reference types. This was done to avoid mistakes like having a type that is sometimes used as a value type and sometimes as a reference type.
      - SilentLambda 4y ago
        ..and in the context of a module.. not even used as a type at all.
      - SilentLambda 4y ago
        Would have been much better in my opinion, if D had maintained a C like struct (not a C++ like struct), and a C++ like class. That would have solved the problem you identified, while still allowing for the class to be what it was designed to be. The mistake C++ made was the mistake you identified. But the solution you provided in D is its own mistake.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        The C++ class would require the user to constantly remember it has to be passed by reference, not by value. D making the class a reference type means the user cannot mix them up. It has worked well from the beginning, it is not a mistake.
kjksf 4y ago
There's quite a lot of information, just not very accessible. https://www.twitch.tv/j_blow/videos?filter=archives&sort=time https://www.twitch.tv/j_blow/videos?filter=archives&sort=tim... : this is jai's author livestreaming language development, most up-to-date https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmV5I2fxaiCKfxMBrNsU1kgKJXD3PkyxO https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmV5I2fxaiCKfxMBrNsU1... : a cureated subset of twitch videos, possibly outdated info https://github.com/BSVino/JaiPrimer/blob/master/JaiPrimer.md https://github.com/BSVino/JaiPrimer/blob/master/JaiPrimer.md : a summary of jai based on the above curated videos, possibly outdated
vinyl7 4y ago
Here's a community run wiki that's been kept up-to-date https://github.com/Jai-Community/Jai-Community-Library/wiki https://github.com/Jai-Community/Jai-Community-Library/wiki

It’s hard to find any material on Jai. It seems to be a “better C”. Isn’t that what D / Zig try to do? What’s the advantage?

by 3a2d29 4y ago

It’s hard to find any material on Jai. It seems to be a “better C”. Isn’t that what D / Zig try to do? What’s the advantage?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

stephc_int13 4y ago

I think that Jai / Zig / Odin all started around the same time. D is closer to C++ than C, in my opinion. I suspect that Jai was an inspiration for Zig and Odin. Many developers in gamedev circles are still using C or orthodox C++ (C++ without most of the bullshit) but are frustrated by many features and gaps. Short compilation time is one of the big goals, as it is crucial for fast iteration. The goal is simply to have a powerful low-level/system language that is enjoyable to use. Or at least more enjoyable than C++. (the de-facto standard)

3a2d29 4y ago
Right that makes sense. I’m curious if the gaming industry will switch languages, it feels like with the current game engines that it’s heavily entrenched in C and C++. Feels like something like Carbon has the best chance to break in.
- stephc_int13 4y ago
  Only time will tell. But I think there is an opportunity at this point in time.
- oxryly1 4y ago
  A chunk has already switched to C# with Unity. Most other engines (proprietary, Unreal, etc) have decades of C++ that would require too much effort to migrate to anything new.
  - cmovq 4y ago
    Unity is still written in C++. It's fairly common to write the core engine in C++ and use a language like Lua, or as is more common in AAA, some proprietary scripting language for gameplay code.
    - 3a2d29 4y ago
      Interesting. I heard the Civilization games were Lua, didn’t know that was more common.
      - TheCycoONE 4y ago
        Quite common: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lua_(programming_language)-scripted_video_games https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lua_(programming_la... I work on CorsixTH as a hobby which is also c++ and lua.
      - int_19h 4y ago
        This kind of thing in general is very common and goes back decades, it's just that the languages used to be custom (QuakeC, UnrealScript etc) before the industry largely standardized around Lua. Some older games also experimented with Python for this, and I recall even seeing Tcl once.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Unity core, written by Unity employees, customers use C#, that is a big difference. Also since Burst got mature, many C++ modules are slowly being rewritten in C#/Burst subset.
- bartwe 4y ago
  There are a number of Rust projects happening, but not overtaking c++ any time soon.
bachmeier 4y ago
> D is closer to C++ than C, in my opinion. In terms of what the language allows you to do, yes. However, if you're a C programmer, you can pretty much just keep writing the same code you've always written (minus the preprocessor, thankfully). You can even compile C code with the D compiler and call those functions from your D code without doing anything further. That's definitely not the case with C++.
- moonchild 4y ago
  Oh, come on now. I'm no C++ apologist, but you can do both of those things in C++ as well as in D.
  - bachmeier 4y ago
    I meant you can't do things like compile C++ code directly into your D project.
- SilentLambda 4y ago
  D is not at all like C++. D is D. You only need to compare how C++ and D treat a class type, and you know straight away they are miles apart (I prefer C++ in this regard). D has a subset, and that subset is more like C - pretty much cause that subset is C. That can be interesting to use, since it's like C with modules. But don't be fooled. D is not like C++. I wish people would stop saying as such, cause it's not at all true.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    You're right, in many areas it is more powerfull than C++23 is. As for classes, just pretend you are using structs in C++, and use structs in D.
hsn915 4y ago
If you can find very old Jai videos on YouTube, you can find the creator of Odin was one of the early people excited about the project. I suppose if the development of Jai was made more in the open/public, Odin would probably not have existed. That said, I'm glad Odin exists.
- BaculumMeumEst 4y ago
  You can find the creator of Zig in those videos as well
  - mariusor 4y ago
    I think that even if Jai didn't directly inspire Odin and Zig, seeing Jon's enthusiasm for his new language influenced GingerBill and Andrew Kelley in their work. This is only the conjecture of someone on the side, but the timeline fits pretty well in my opinion.
WalterBright 4y ago
> D is closer to C++ than C I'd put C++ as being between C and D, as D leaves a lot of things behind like the preprocessor.
- SilentLambda 4y ago
  .. you forgot to mention also, that (in the context of a D module) D stops treating a user-defined class-type as real type. Additionally, a D class is a reference type. Whereas in C++, a class type is a real type (treated as any built-in type), and is a value type (by default). Nor does D have a concept of C++ friend. So even when it comes to classes, C++ and D are miles apart.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    D structs are value types, D classes are reference types. This was done to avoid mistakes like having a type that is sometimes used as a value type and sometimes as a reference type.
    - SilentLambda 4y ago
      ..and in the context of a module.. not even used as a type at all.
    - SilentLambda 4y ago
      Would have been much better in my opinion, if D had maintained a C like struct (not a C++ like struct), and a C++ like class. That would have solved the problem you identified, while still allowing for the class to be what it was designed to be. The mistake C++ made was the mistake you identified. But the solution you provided in D is its own mistake.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        The C++ class would require the user to constantly remember it has to be passed by reference, not by value. D making the class a reference type means the user cannot mix them up. It has worked well from the beginning, it is not a mistake.

kjksf 4y ago

There's quite a lot of information, just not very accessible. https://www.twitch.tv/j_blow/videos?filter=archives&sort=time https://www.twitch.tv/j_blow/videos?filter=archives&sort=tim... : this is jai's author livestreaming language development, most up-to-date https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmV5I2fxaiCKfxMBrNsU1kgKJXD3PkyxO https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmV5I2fxaiCKfxMBrNsU1... : a cureated subset of twitch videos, possibly outdated info https://github.com/BSVino/JaiPrimer/blob/master/JaiPrimer.md https://github.com/BSVino/JaiPrimer/blob/master/JaiPrimer.md : a summary of jai based on the above curated videos, possibly outdated

vinyl7 4y ago

Here's a community run wiki that's been kept up-to-date https://github.com/Jai-Community/Jai-Community-Library/wiki https://github.com/Jai-Community/Jai-Community-Library/wiki