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On the other hand, if everything is always presented in its full complexity with a million caveats and you lose people because they don't have the prerequisite

On the other hand, if everything is always presented in its full complexity with a million caveats and you lose people because they don't have the prerequisite knowledge to be able to digest it, I guarantee this will result in many, many more potential contributions being lost than from those who were just "satisfied that it was all worked out already".

ouid 4y ago
Your "guarantee" is insufficient evidence that lying to the population is worthwhile. The burden of evidence is on you, I think. You're also making unreasonable assumtpions about the burden associated with not lying. You don't have to completely solve the miscommunication problem in order to do something about it, and even if you were to try to completely solve the miscommunication problem, it would not require you to include a million caveats. Basically you could solve the whole problem by not making analogies.
- 1auralynn 4y ago
  Yeah I mean, we could just never use real structural data and just communicate purely in symbols that way users would know it's "not real", or inherit a billion dollars and come up with a perfect simulator and high-end computers for all of humanity to view it. This stuff is HARD to make, and nearly impossible to satisfy everyone. Drew Barry's animations are "lying" because they're not a perfect representation of reality? In my opinion, it's better for his animations to exist and be "lying" than have nothing.
- pixl97 4y ago
  You're falling into your own trap of what is and isn't a lie. Lets go with the common aphorism 'all models are wrong, but some are useful'. As it puts forth there are a large number of useful models, but wouldn't that fall under your term of a lie since it's not the truth of a situation. The problem with reality is it feels no need to be explainable. I think I meant to post this to the user above you....
  - 1auralynn 4y ago
    Exactly? I wasn't the one who classified Drew Barry's work, widely acknowledged as some of the very best and most accurate in molecular animation, as "lies" ... so, not really sure what you're saying? In reality, humans can't see down to the nanoscale with their eyes, yet there are real 3D structures down there that have a physical form. If we display them as being a couple of inches large so that humans can see the shape, is that misleading? Should we never try to visualize anything for fear of it not accurately representing reality? I guess my point is, as someone who has done a ton of work in this area, there are a million choices one can make when choosing what to visualize, and the lines between truth/reality/lies/accuracy can get muddled. A lot of it depends on context, use cases etc. For example, a star high school teacher may show one of Drew Barry's animations to their class and use it as an example of the limitations of visualization. A creationist could use the same animation as evidence of "God's perfect design". What I'm understanding from the article and from your arguments, is that unless you can guarantee that a piece of work 100% represents reality in all its complexity, it does more harm than good. I'm politely disagreeing, I think it's better for these works to exist: "Perfection is the enemy of done".

ouid 4y ago

Your "guarantee" is insufficient evidence that lying to the population is worthwhile. The burden of evidence is on you, I think. You're also making unreasonable assumtpions about the burden associated with not lying. You don't have to completely solve the miscommunication problem in order to do something about it, and even if you were to try to completely solve the miscommunication problem, it would not require you to include a million caveats. Basically you could solve the whole problem by not making analogies.

1auralynn 4y ago
Yeah I mean, we could just never use real structural data and just communicate purely in symbols that way users would know it's "not real", or inherit a billion dollars and come up with a perfect simulator and high-end computers for all of humanity to view it. This stuff is HARD to make, and nearly impossible to satisfy everyone. Drew Barry's animations are "lying" because they're not a perfect representation of reality? In my opinion, it's better for his animations to exist and be "lying" than have nothing.
pixl97 4y ago
You're falling into your own trap of what is and isn't a lie. Lets go with the common aphorism 'all models are wrong, but some are useful'. As it puts forth there are a large number of useful models, but wouldn't that fall under your term of a lie since it's not the truth of a situation. The problem with reality is it feels no need to be explainable. I think I meant to post this to the user above you....
- 1auralynn 4y ago
  Exactly? I wasn't the one who classified Drew Barry's work, widely acknowledged as some of the very best and most accurate in molecular animation, as "lies" ... so, not really sure what you're saying? In reality, humans can't see down to the nanoscale with their eyes, yet there are real 3D structures down there that have a physical form. If we display them as being a couple of inches large so that humans can see the shape, is that misleading? Should we never try to visualize anything for fear of it not accurately representing reality? I guess my point is, as someone who has done a ton of work in this area, there are a million choices one can make when choosing what to visualize, and the lines between truth/reality/lies/accuracy can get muddled. A lot of it depends on context, use cases etc. For example, a star high school teacher may show one of Drew Barry's animations to their class and use it as an example of the limitations of visualization. A creationist could use the same animation as evidence of "God's perfect design". What I'm understanding from the article and from your arguments, is that unless you can guarantee that a piece of work 100% represents reality in all its complexity, it does more harm than good. I'm politely disagreeing, I think it's better for these works to exist: "Perfection is the enemy of done".