7 ms·

Something that touches power-train needs to be ASIL-D grade. For a good reason.

aftbit 4y ago
When sold by the manufacturer, sure. When modded by the final consumer, I am less convinced. Sure, a misbehaving car can be a hazard to those around it as well as its driver, but we already accept a huge amount of that in the name of personal freedom. Why not a bit more for those among us who choose to tune and hack their vehicles?
- horsawlarway 4y ago
  I'm firmly on this side. The single most dangerous part of the car is the driver. You can do basically the exact same damage with a standard car at highways speeds using nothing but the steering wheel and accelerator. And it happens all the time. Functionally - I don't see much difference between a misbehaving control module and a driver having a stroke. You can also solve both problems with a single stroke by making public transportation effective and preferable in places where density is likely to make this a problem (cities).
  - georgyo 4y ago
    I'm incline to agree, but the driver is the most dangerous because we _assume_ that the when the driver pushes the gas or the breaks they will work. In the age of the accelerator and break going to software systems instead of mechanical systems, it is 100% possible to crash that software and all the sudden you cannot break.
  - kmlx 4y ago
    > The single most dangerous part of the car is the driver. this is only because we have incredibly high safety standards when it comes to cars.
  - nkrisc 4y ago
    > Functionally - I don't see much difference between a misbehaving control module and a driver having a stroke. There’s a huge difference: one can be reasonably prevented. Unfortunately we can’t reliably prevent people from having strokes.
    - horsawlarway 4y ago
      And you're also going to require this for all other mishaps on the road that we can reasonably prevent? Legally binding regulations for auto maintenance? Legal stops on the road for tire wear checks? Legal scrapping of cars that don't pass certain safety standards? Legal checks for dementia and vision for the elderly? Basically - why is this one the one that you draw the line at? What makes it special? Most folks can agree that neither the driver nor the public want a vehicle with a malfunctioning control module. It's not like there are misaligned interests here. Tuning should be expected to work just as well and any other after-market modification. Are you concerned that it provides more torque, or more speed? Because the same thing is true of just buying a different car... Should a sports car be illegal because it has more torque? Should we ban red cars because - statistically - they're more likely to be involved in an accident? Should no one be allowed to drive a subcompact because crash mortalities are nearly double those of the average vehicle? Why? Why does this require regulation that you're proposing? What warrants the loss of control for the individual, in a case where it's pretty clear interests are aligned, and there are dozens of other nearly identical risks?
    - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
      >Unfortunately we can’t reliably prevent people from having strokes Nonsense, we can implement draconian licensing laws and Orwellian medical record sharing laws to keep the at risk off the roads. The peasants can have all the strokes they want, just not on the roads. (The above is satire but it's proximity to viewpoints that aren't satire should make people uncomfortable.)
      - dandellion 4y ago
        Or require redundant driving controls and a backup driver always present, if the main driver has a stroke the co-pilot takes over and drives. Where there's a will there's a way. Or take it to the limit and make driving so inconvenient that nobody drives, thereby solving the problem once and for all.
  - constantcrying 4y ago
    > Functionally - I don't see much difference between a misbehaving control module and a driver having a stroke. We have total control over not installing aftermarket safety critical software, which may or may not allow a driver to break.
- downrightmike 4y ago
  We've had after market solution to modify the power train of combustion engines for a long time, I remember ones that used a palm pilot. Once it is yours, you should be able to do what you want, especially on such a large ticket item.
  - anthonypasq 4y ago
    isnt there the idea of a car being 'street legal?' we already have an incredible amount of regulation on how you are able to modify your car. You shouldnt be able to do anything you want to your car and expect to use it on public roads.
    - throwaway09223 4y ago
      Sure, but what's being suggested is making modifications within those parameters. You can tinker with the powertrain but it still has to pass smog.
      - anonym29 4y ago
        Smog isn't a requirement in a vast majority of US counties, and even in the ones where it is required, finding a shop that will pass you for it even without a catalytic converter is fairly trivial. Further, I've never heard of anyone getting ticketed outside of California for having smog noncompliance.
        throwaway09223 4y ago
        Sure, some jurisdictions have decided to have different standards. What's your point?
      - downrightmike 4y ago
        Rolling coal is a thing and you can take a vehicle to a place around the corner from the test center for a $100 'tune up' to make it pass.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  > Sure, a misbehaving car can be a hazard to those around it as well as its driver, but we already accept a huge amount of that "Well we shouldn't" is also a very reasonable response to this. Cars should have speed and acceleration governors. The main reason they don't is that they haven't, but in this case "personal freedom" is basically just the enjoyment of the driver. There are very very few other domains where we allow people to risk harm and death to other nonconsenting nonparticipants just because it's enjoyable to them. We should bring cars in line with our other social norms, not increase the degree to which they are an outlier.
ProblemFactory 4y ago
It's legal to install an aftermarket turbo, swap the engine, lift the car by a few feet. Or repair your powertrain with zip-ties.
- dymk 4y ago
  It’s actually not legal to drive a car on the highway with cut brake lines
- ravenstine 4y ago
  It's not quite as straight forward when it comes to ECU reprogramming/tuning. While it seems legal to modify an ECU or use an aftermarket ECU, states like California now won't allow cars with these sorts of mods to pass smog tests, and there's nothing to stop manufacturers from voiding your warranty for soft-modifying the ECU. It's a small leap for states to decide that not having the latest ECU firmware causes a failed smog test or even an "emissions fine" regardless of the actual exhaust composition.
  - CogitoCogito 4y ago
    > and there's nothing to stop manufacturers from voiding your warranty for soft-modifying the ECU. Wouldn’t the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act still apply?
    - ravenstine 4y ago
      Generally speaking, yes, unless a dealer believes they can blame your modification for the issue. The ECU affects the entire powertrain, so there's incentive for the dealer to blame the mod for even just a cracked engine mount, while counting on you paying for a repair as opposed to filing a lawsuit. After all, your engine must have been running hot and accelerated the wear on the mount. Oh, logging shows it wasn't? Must be a malfunctioning thermostat. That'll be $3,000 for the mount, the thermostat, and the labor. Not including any extra charges, fees, surcharges, taxes, or overcharges. Car dealers are no different from insurance companies. Whether it's warranty or insurance, they make money by denying claims. The ECU is enough of a black box that practically anything critical can be blamed on it if it's not using factory settings.

When sold by the manufacturer, sure. When modded by the final consumer, I am less convinced. Sure, a misbehaving car can be a hazard to those around it as well as its driver, but we already accept a huge amount of that in the name of personal freedom. Why not a bit more for those among us who choose to tune and hack their vehicles?

horsawlarway 4y ago
I'm firmly on this side. The single most dangerous part of the car is the driver. You can do basically the exact same damage with a standard car at highways speeds using nothing but the steering wheel and accelerator. And it happens all the time. Functionally - I don't see much difference between a misbehaving control module and a driver having a stroke. You can also solve both problems with a single stroke by making public transportation effective and preferable in places where density is likely to make this a problem (cities).
- georgyo 4y ago
  I'm incline to agree, but the driver is the most dangerous because we _assume_ that the when the driver pushes the gas or the breaks they will work. In the age of the accelerator and break going to software systems instead of mechanical systems, it is 100% possible to crash that software and all the sudden you cannot break.
- kmlx 4y ago
  > The single most dangerous part of the car is the driver. this is only because we have incredibly high safety standards when it comes to cars.
- nkrisc 4y ago
  > Functionally - I don't see much difference between a misbehaving control module and a driver having a stroke. There’s a huge difference: one can be reasonably prevented. Unfortunately we can’t reliably prevent people from having strokes.
  - horsawlarway 4y ago
    And you're also going to require this for all other mishaps on the road that we can reasonably prevent? Legally binding regulations for auto maintenance? Legal stops on the road for tire wear checks? Legal scrapping of cars that don't pass certain safety standards? Legal checks for dementia and vision for the elderly? Basically - why is this one the one that you draw the line at? What makes it special? Most folks can agree that neither the driver nor the public want a vehicle with a malfunctioning control module. It's not like there are misaligned interests here. Tuning should be expected to work just as well and any other after-market modification. Are you concerned that it provides more torque, or more speed? Because the same thing is true of just buying a different car... Should a sports car be illegal because it has more torque? Should we ban red cars because - statistically - they're more likely to be involved in an accident? Should no one be allowed to drive a subcompact because crash mortalities are nearly double those of the average vehicle? Why? Why does this require regulation that you're proposing? What warrants the loss of control for the individual, in a case where it's pretty clear interests are aligned, and there are dozens of other nearly identical risks?
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    >Unfortunately we can’t reliably prevent people from having strokes Nonsense, we can implement draconian licensing laws and Orwellian medical record sharing laws to keep the at risk off the roads. The peasants can have all the strokes they want, just not on the roads. (The above is satire but it's proximity to viewpoints that aren't satire should make people uncomfortable.)
    - dandellion 4y ago
      Or require redundant driving controls and a backup driver always present, if the main driver has a stroke the co-pilot takes over and drives. Where there's a will there's a way. Or take it to the limit and make driving so inconvenient that nobody drives, thereby solving the problem once and for all.
- constantcrying 4y ago
  > Functionally - I don't see much difference between a misbehaving control module and a driver having a stroke. We have total control over not installing aftermarket safety critical software, which may or may not allow a driver to break.
downrightmike 4y ago
We've had after market solution to modify the power train of combustion engines for a long time, I remember ones that used a palm pilot. Once it is yours, you should be able to do what you want, especially on such a large ticket item.
- anthonypasq 4y ago
  isnt there the idea of a car being 'street legal?' we already have an incredible amount of regulation on how you are able to modify your car. You shouldnt be able to do anything you want to your car and expect to use it on public roads.
  - throwaway09223 4y ago
    Sure, but what's being suggested is making modifications within those parameters. You can tinker with the powertrain but it still has to pass smog.
    - anonym29 4y ago
      Smog isn't a requirement in a vast majority of US counties, and even in the ones where it is required, finding a shop that will pass you for it even without a catalytic converter is fairly trivial. Further, I've never heard of anyone getting ticketed outside of California for having smog noncompliance.
      - throwaway09223 4y ago
        Sure, some jurisdictions have decided to have different standards. What's your point?
    - downrightmike 4y ago
      Rolling coal is a thing and you can take a vehicle to a place around the corner from the test center for a $100 'tune up' to make it pass.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
giraffe_lady 4y ago
> Sure, a misbehaving car can be a hazard to those around it as well as its driver, but we already accept a huge amount of that "Well we shouldn't" is also a very reasonable response to this. Cars should have speed and acceleration governors. The main reason they don't is that they haven't, but in this case "personal freedom" is basically just the enjoyment of the driver. There are very very few other domains where we allow people to risk harm and death to other nonconsenting nonparticipants just because it's enjoyable to them. We should bring cars in line with our other social norms, not increase the degree to which they are an outlier.

ProblemFactory 4y ago

It's legal to install an aftermarket turbo, swap the engine, lift the car by a few feet. Or repair your powertrain with zip-ties.

dymk 4y ago
It’s actually not legal to drive a car on the highway with cut brake lines
ravenstine 4y ago
It's not quite as straight forward when it comes to ECU reprogramming/tuning. While it seems legal to modify an ECU or use an aftermarket ECU, states like California now won't allow cars with these sorts of mods to pass smog tests, and there's nothing to stop manufacturers from voiding your warranty for soft-modifying the ECU. It's a small leap for states to decide that not having the latest ECU firmware causes a failed smog test or even an "emissions fine" regardless of the actual exhaust composition.
- CogitoCogito 4y ago
  > and there's nothing to stop manufacturers from voiding your warranty for soft-modifying the ECU. Wouldn’t the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act still apply?
  - ravenstine 4y ago
    Generally speaking, yes, unless a dealer believes they can blame your modification for the issue. The ECU affects the entire powertrain, so there's incentive for the dealer to blame the mod for even just a cracked engine mount, while counting on you paying for a repair as opposed to filing a lawsuit. After all, your engine must have been running hot and accelerated the wear on the mount. Oh, logging shows it wasn't? Must be a malfunctioning thermostat. That'll be $3,000 for the mount, the thermostat, and the labor. Not including any extra charges, fees, surcharges, taxes, or overcharges. Car dealers are no different from insurance companies. Whether it's warranty or insurance, they make money by denying claims. The ECU is enough of a black box that practically anything critical can be blamed on it if it's not using factory settings.