5 ms·

Just because the US happened to be founded in the Age of Enlightenment that doesn't magically grant us heritage back to antiquity. And the argument isn't about

Just because the US happened to be founded in the Age of Enlightenment that doesn't magically grant us heritage back to antiquity. And the argument isn't about the size of cities or political organization. But for reference, Philadelphia in 1790 had population 28k. That's on par with Paris around year 0 in the Roman era, or roughly year 1100 as the city recovered in the middle ages.

hattmall 4y ago
Would any of these have been the same people? Like is it conceivable the same family lineage in Paris 0-1100, or even 2k years to now or would the war, conquest, etc have changed the demographics considerably?
- relaxing 4y ago
  Lineage in terms of common ancestor and shared DNA? Of course. It’s pretty rare for invasions to result in the wholesale slaughter and replacement of a population.
  - mrkstu 4y ago
    Well, depends- it’s actually fairly common in earlier ages. In the last thousand years or so a bit less, and last 100 basically not at all.
tomrod 4y ago
It's not American exceptionalism to show the similarities to Europe, simply a note of likeness. No need to be hostile to the notion of identifying intersecting attributes.
- relaxing 4y ago
  We’re talking about the length of history, there’s no intersection.
  - tomrod 4y ago
    Clearly there is, from the industrial revolution forward. France tried to completely recreate itself several times during this period. By way of example, we no longer call it the Frankish lands nor the monarchy. Aggregate governance structures have changed tens of times, whereas the US really hasn't changed dramatically in the post Native American and post Revolution periods.
    - fnordpiglet 4y ago
      I think give the US is a collection of independent states the massive growth of states in the 1800’s might count as another transformative period for the political institution, which has been relatively stable since the 1900’s with 5 state governments being established (most front loaded the ~first decade).
    - relaxing 4y ago
      The French national identity goes back to Charlemagne, not merely de Gaulle.
      - brnt 4y ago
        Napoleon, in case you studied the subject. The history of Franks and France is certainly not one of direct descendence, nor was there such a thing as a nation or national identity at the time of Charlemagne. Did you know the only surviving Franconian language is Dutch?
      - philwelch 4y ago
        And the American national identity goes back primarily to the Anglo-Saxons.
        relaxing 4y ago
        We fought multiple wars to sever those ties. Then allowed generations of non-Anglo immigration, not to mention slavery. There are far more Americans who claim German descent than English. Irish, too. And Blacks.
fnordpiglet 4y ago
I always found these statements interesting. Heritage follows a cultural lineage that doesn’t attach necessarily to political institutions. Much of Europe’s political structure post dates the US. The heritage of the US is extraordinarily rich and inherits the heritage of the entire planet as cultures have immigrated and integrated. We have very clear direct heritages to England, Ireland, Italy, Germany, France, China, India, Japan, Russia, Greece, to name a few. Every American city has a “town” for these cultures. Are they not our heritage? How can they possibly not be? Japan has a very clear monoculture heritage for a very long time. But part of British heritage is Roman occupied England is it not? Germany shares a heritage with Prussia. Much of the world has some Mongolian heritage, don’t they? You can see the influence not just in genetics but in art and culture. How is that not their heritage? If this is true, then perhaps the issue isn’t that America has no heritage, but that it is so comprehensive that it’s impossible to pin it down to something as distinct as a monoculture?
- Archelaos 4y ago
  > Much of Europe’s political structure post dates the US. I do not think that one can make such a claim objectively. There is a whole lot of prejudice hidden behind the word "much". Political structure simply cannot be quantified. There are elements that were earlier in the US. There are elements that were earlier in Europe. Some elements were earlier in Europe, but given up inbetween and readopted later. Some elements are unique to the US, some to Europe. Some elements have changed so much during their history that you may either claim that they represent a very old system or a very new one. (For the latter: Is present day Vatican the oldest political institution in Europe, because it can trace its origins to Antiquity, or is it one of the youngest, because it was formed with the help of Mussolini?) -- One needs to tell stories of origin, not impose inappropriate metrics.
- leipert 4y ago
  As a European it just seems weird that sometimes the heritage that is a few generations old is pulled out of thin air in order to give some meaning in the modern day. If your family migrated to the US in the 1800s, you ain’t German, Irish or French no more. Yes, we have the same heritage, but the fork happened so long ago, that you cannot relate to the experience of something that happened later in Europe or elsewhere. Similarly how I cannot go to some German-heritage community in the US and relate to everything they lived through.

hattmall 4y ago

Would any of these have been the same people? Like is it conceivable the same family lineage in Paris 0-1100, or even 2k years to now or would the war, conquest, etc have changed the demographics considerably?

relaxing 4y ago
Lineage in terms of common ancestor and shared DNA? Of course. It’s pretty rare for invasions to result in the wholesale slaughter and replacement of a population.
- mrkstu 4y ago
  Well, depends- it’s actually fairly common in earlier ages. In the last thousand years or so a bit less, and last 100 basically not at all.

tomrod 4y ago

It's not American exceptionalism to show the similarities to Europe, simply a note of likeness. No need to be hostile to the notion of identifying intersecting attributes.

relaxing 4y ago
We’re talking about the length of history, there’s no intersection.
- tomrod 4y ago
  Clearly there is, from the industrial revolution forward. France tried to completely recreate itself several times during this period. By way of example, we no longer call it the Frankish lands nor the monarchy. Aggregate governance structures have changed tens of times, whereas the US really hasn't changed dramatically in the post Native American and post Revolution periods.
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    I think give the US is a collection of independent states the massive growth of states in the 1800’s might count as another transformative period for the political institution, which has been relatively stable since the 1900’s with 5 state governments being established (most front loaded the ~first decade).
  - relaxing 4y ago
    The French national identity goes back to Charlemagne, not merely de Gaulle.
    - brnt 4y ago
      Napoleon, in case you studied the subject. The history of Franks and France is certainly not one of direct descendence, nor was there such a thing as a nation or national identity at the time of Charlemagne. Did you know the only surviving Franconian language is Dutch?
    - philwelch 4y ago
      And the American national identity goes back primarily to the Anglo-Saxons.
      - relaxing 4y ago
        We fought multiple wars to sever those ties. Then allowed generations of non-Anglo immigration, not to mention slavery. There are far more Americans who claim German descent than English. Irish, too. And Blacks.

fnordpiglet 4y ago

I always found these statements interesting. Heritage follows a cultural lineage that doesn’t attach necessarily to political institutions. Much of Europe’s political structure post dates the US. The heritage of the US is extraordinarily rich and inherits the heritage of the entire planet as cultures have immigrated and integrated. We have very clear direct heritages to England, Ireland, Italy, Germany, France, China, India, Japan, Russia, Greece, to name a few. Every American city has a “town” for these cultures. Are they not our heritage? How can they possibly not be? Japan has a very clear monoculture heritage for a very long time. But part of British heritage is Roman occupied England is it not? Germany shares a heritage with Prussia. Much of the world has some Mongolian heritage, don’t they? You can see the influence not just in genetics but in art and culture. How is that not their heritage? If this is true, then perhaps the issue isn’t that America has no heritage, but that it is so comprehensive that it’s impossible to pin it down to something as distinct as a monoculture?

Archelaos 4y ago
> Much of Europe’s political structure post dates the US. I do not think that one can make such a claim objectively. There is a whole lot of prejudice hidden behind the word "much". Political structure simply cannot be quantified. There are elements that were earlier in the US. There are elements that were earlier in Europe. Some elements were earlier in Europe, but given up inbetween and readopted later. Some elements are unique to the US, some to Europe. Some elements have changed so much during their history that you may either claim that they represent a very old system or a very new one. (For the latter: Is present day Vatican the oldest political institution in Europe, because it can trace its origins to Antiquity, or is it one of the youngest, because it was formed with the help of Mussolini?) -- One needs to tell stories of origin, not impose inappropriate metrics.
leipert 4y ago
As a European it just seems weird that sometimes the heritage that is a few generations old is pulled out of thin air in order to give some meaning in the modern day. If your family migrated to the US in the 1800s, you ain’t German, Irish or French no more. Yes, we have the same heritage, but the fork happened so long ago, that you cannot relate to the experience of something that happened later in Europe or elsewhere. Similarly how I cannot go to some German-heritage community in the US and relate to everything they lived through.