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> Who say things like “American missiles fired by Ukraine?” Russia-aligned internet commenters seem to say things like that a lot. I think it's part of their

> Who say things like “American missiles fired by Ukraine?” Russia-aligned internet commenters seem to say things like that a lot. I think it's part of their cope; Russia couldn't be struggling against Ukrainians... no... they're struggling against Ukrainians with American weapons! I guess this is gentler on their egos.

SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
I mean… that is the truth though. Without the full force of US Intelligence and more money sent to Ukraine this year than any year of the Iraq/Afghanistan war… yes, Ukraine would have folded months ago. This is very clearly a proxy war.
- cloverich 4y ago
  I'm not sure it is a proxy war, as the Ukrainian government is not being instigated by the US. Granted I'm not v. familiar w/ Ukrainian politics but if the Ukrainian leadership is democratically elected, and the population is generally against Russian leaders taking over the country (this part seems likely), it is much closer to an alliance no? In the same way the US supplied Russia with materials in WWII -- while clearly of a much different scale and impact -- it would seem awkward and inaccurate to claim the Nazi's were fighting the US when they were invading Russia.
  - josephb 4y ago
    > I'm not sure it is a proxy war, as the Ukrainian government is not being instigated by the US. Ukraine military spending is ~$6b/yr [0] and so far this year the US has sent ~$57b of "aid" to Ukraine [1], of which ~$27b is military. The total US commitment dwarfs the contribution from all other countries [2] and it appears there is a request for another ~$38b [3] of which ~$21b is military spending. So while one could claim that the US is not instigating Ukraine govt to war, it's clear that the US is funding a greater part of the military activities by providing equipment for the war to the tune of at least (to date) 4-5x Ukraine's normal military spending each year. [0]. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293277/ukraine-military-spending/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293277/ukraine-military... [1]. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-... [2]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_aid_to_Ukraine... [3]. https://www.defensenews.com/congress/budget/2022/11/15/white-house-requests-38-billion-more-in-ukraine-aid/ https://www.defensenews.com/congress/budget/2022/11/15/white...

SV_BubbleTime 4y ago

I mean… that is the truth though. Without the full force of US Intelligence and more money sent to Ukraine this year than any year of the Iraq/Afghanistan war… yes, Ukraine would have folded months ago. This is very clearly a proxy war.

cloverich 4y ago
I'm not sure it is a proxy war, as the Ukrainian government is not being instigated by the US. Granted I'm not v. familiar w/ Ukrainian politics but if the Ukrainian leadership is democratically elected, and the population is generally against Russian leaders taking over the country (this part seems likely), it is much closer to an alliance no? In the same way the US supplied Russia with materials in WWII -- while clearly of a much different scale and impact -- it would seem awkward and inaccurate to claim the Nazi's were fighting the US when they were invading Russia.
- josephb 4y ago
  > I'm not sure it is a proxy war, as the Ukrainian government is not being instigated by the US. Ukraine military spending is ~$6b/yr [0] and so far this year the US has sent ~$57b of "aid" to Ukraine [1], of which ~$27b is military. The total US commitment dwarfs the contribution from all other countries [2] and it appears there is a request for another ~$38b [3] of which ~$21b is military spending. So while one could claim that the US is not instigating Ukraine govt to war, it's clear that the US is funding a greater part of the military activities by providing equipment for the war to the tune of at least (to date) 4-5x Ukraine's normal military spending each year. [0]. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293277/ukraine-military-spending/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293277/ukraine-military... [1]. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-... [2]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_aid_to_Ukraine... [3]. https://www.defensenews.com/congress/budget/2022/11/15/white-house-requests-38-billion-more-in-ukraine-aid/ https://www.defensenews.com/congress/budget/2022/11/15/white...