3 ms·

Frankly, this seems like an editorial mistake not a journalists mistake. Unless he completely made up the information he received, or lied about the attributio

Frankly, this seems like an editorial mistake not a journalists mistake. Unless he completely made up the information he received, or lied about the attribution in the internal slack chat, he should not have been fired for this. This was an editorial error. In fact, the exact information he passed along was factually correct by one interpretation. The S-300 rockets were "Russian" in the sense that they were Russian manufacturing. They were not "Russian" in the sense that they were fired by Russian armed forces (to the best of our knowledge). Really think the AP has tried to pin the blame on this one reporter incorrectly.

ajross 4y ago
That seems likely, but you still don't let the reporter off the hook. "Technically correct by one interpretation" isn't the standard for journalistic sourcing. He needed another source or more context (just an identification of these as AA missiles would have been enough to kill the story) and didn't get one. It was a messup on a few different axes, but it's started with bad journalism. Whether or not the guy was fired as a scapegoat or to cover up someone else's mistake is, heh, not something we have reportable sourcing for.
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  > just an identification of these as AA missiles would have been enough to kill the story I understand why "Russia fires on Poland" is news. Why is "Ukraine fires on Poland, blames Russia" not news?
  - ajross 4y ago
    > Why is "Ukraine fires on Poland, blames Russia" not news? Because that's not what happened? That's spin. In fact Ukraine jumped on this story only once the AP published it. It's popular to attribute this to Ukrainian propaganda in some circles, but (heh, again getting to the actual subject at hand) that's not something you can report unless you can find evidence. All the facts we know point to the Ukrainian government being just as fooled by the AP story as we were.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      And it’s not impossible to dream up a world where that kind of mistake would actually get Article 5 moving.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      Ukraine is still insisting that they didn't fire the missile. It's not an oversight or a misinterpretation.
    - eshch 4y ago
      Ukraine should know not from AP whose missile it was, but they are still in denial, can you imagine?
  - millzlane 4y ago
    Probably because Ukraine didn't fire on Poland they fired on armament launched by Russia.
  - HWR_14 4y ago
    Two main reasons 1) Article 5. If Poland is attacked NATO would have to use whatever force was needed to protect it. In Russia's case, that means war against a nuclear power. In Ukraine's case, it means telling them NATO'll stop delivering weapons and Ukraine can fight Russia alone unless they apologize. Even if there was a war with Ukraine, it's not a nuclear power and wouldn't last long against NATO. 2) It was an accident. Russia launching on Poland could have been intentional. Ukraine almost certainly did it by mistake. (BTW, Russia apologizing in an hour and paying reparations would likely also have had no long term effect). Since it was an accident Ukraine probably blamed Russia thinking it was Russia since they didn't think they had done it. And by "blamed" I mean, it was after the AP story brought it to light. So more like denied it was them. Fog of war and all.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      > Russia launching on Poland could have been intentional. If we assume that Russia is dying to give NATO an excuse to escalate, i.e. that they're insane and want to destroy the world.
      - HWR_14 4y ago
        If you replace "Russia" with "Putin" it's possible that he would rather end the world than lose in Ukraine. And it's possible that he would need to generate the escalation to justify ordering the ICBMs to fly, otherwise the commanders might decline.
        pessimizer 4y ago
        There's a celebrity Putin created by propaganda who is a rabid foaming maniac, and there's the real Putin, who hasn't ever seemed particularly irrational, or even overly adventurous. There's also a war with Russia, a whole country, that a lot of people have sought to reduce to Putin, but as adults we don't have to pretend that Russia is an appendage to a single great man's will.
        HWR_14 4y ago
  - vkou 4y ago
    > Why is "Ukraine fires on Poland, blames Russia" not news? The same reason that a lot of people assumed that "Russia fires a single missile at Poland" was not an obvious, tragic accident from the get-go. Motivated thinking.
  - elihu 4y ago
    Because there's no intentionality involved, and it's unlikely to escalate into a military conflict. "Ukraine fires an S-300 at a Russian missile but it misses and kills a couple people in Poland" is a tragic accident, probably newsworthy, but not in the same way as Russia or Ukraine deliberately launching missiles into Poland would. I think Russia deserves most of the blame for this incident, since it wouldn't have happened if they weren't trying to destroy their neighbor. Zelensky continuing to insist the missile that hit Poland was launched by Russia would be news I suppose. I think that's what he was saying early on, but I haven't been following the story; maybe he gave up on that once more information came out.
- HWR_14 4y ago
  > . He needed another source or more context To publish, maybe. He was at a doctors appointment, got a tip, and passed it to his boss. He didn't write the news alert. If they wanted more context, the other people on the chat should have found some.
  - ajross 4y ago
    That's not how I read the linked story? That particular Slack message happened to coincide with his doctor's appointment, but the article that printed had his byline on it. Surely he wrote it, or at the very least dictated it to an editor who put it in the system. No one publishes stories on the wire based on a two-message slack thread sent from the doctor's office!
    - remarkEon 4y ago
      Unfortunately, and unless AP releases something further in the way of explaining this, we don’t actually know if that’s what happened. Their retraction note is very brief, and simply states the information was wrong. Edit: pasting the entire message > WARSAW, Poland (AP) — In earlier versions of a story published November 15, 2022, The Associated Press reported erroneously, based on information from a senior American intelligence official who spoke on condition of anonymity, that Russian missiles had crossed into Poland and killed two people. Subsequent reporting showed that the missiles were Russian-made and most likely fired by Ukraine in defense against a Russian attack. https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-zelenskyy-kherson-9202c032cf3a5c22761ee71b52ff9d52 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-zelenskyy-kher...
    - HWR_14 4y ago
      What article with his byline? It looks like someone else wrote the news alert that's discussed in the linked article.
    - Jarwain 4y ago
      That's exactly what it looks like happened, though! He posts the received tip at 1:32, mentions his doctors appt at 1:38. Lisa says sending alert at 1:40.
- defrost 4y ago
  It started with commonplace entry level potential story journalism. The reporter literally passed on a tip that missiles (alleged to be Russian type missiles) had landed in Poland (true). He also passed on that this came from a previously vetted source (also true). After this point the story was literally in the hands of the editorial staff.
  - sundvor 4y ago
    Lisa: "Can we report from that or do we need confirmation from another source". James: "That call is above my pay grade" + "I'm at a doctor's appointment". Zeina says "source is vetted". Newsflash sent. Then later retracted. Laporta fired. Just flabbergasting.
- chiefalchemist 4y ago
  Not to sound like a wise-ass but by defintion there is no such thing as bad journalism. If you're doing "bad journalism" you're doing journalism at all. Giving such credit (even with the disclaimer of bad) where credit is *no* due is why the "news media" has become so pathetic and Orwellian. It's sad to see a profession that doesn't even know its own definition and standards. They can be clueless, that doesn't mean the rest of us have to be complicit. https://kottke.org/20/01/jim-lehrers-rules-of-journalism-1 https://kottke.org/20/01/jim-lehrers-rules-of-journalism-1
- ncallaway 4y ago
  > He needed another source or more context (just an identification of these as AA missiles would have been enough to kill the story) and didn't get one. Did you read the slack chat? The journalist 100% does not need another source to inform his internal team of the initial story or the sourcing. Did the journalist make the decision to publish? NO! They said that decision was above their pay grade. When people asked for clarifying information, they said they didn't have any. That's why it was an editorial mistake. Frankly, I simply don't see how you can conclude the journalist needed another source, given that it clearly it wasn't their decision to publish the article. That was an...editorial decision! Which is why I think the blame for publishing without enough information should go to...the editorial team
- eshch 4y ago
  >just an identification of these as AA missiles would have been enough to kill the story Oh, you don't know the story how Ukraine constantly blames Russia for striking civilians by repurposed S-300 missiles! I bet this is the reason they are still in denial about the Poland incident. Because it breaks the legend and points to the real cause: issues with the missiles they launched. Meanwhile there is a constant flow of videos where Ukraine's S-300 missiles fly into land.
andrewclunn 4y ago
More likely this was akin to the WMD reports and Iraq. There's a conclusion and and information that supports it is fast tracked and not given due diligence. Then the retraction and correction is far more muted. This isn't a bug, it's a feature of modern media propaganda.
- alasdair_ 4y ago
  The WMD reports were obviously false at the time and the people peddling those lies clearly understood what they were doing. That wasn't a case of something being missed in the heat of the moment and discovered later - tens of millions of people took to the streets in protest and all of them were making it VERY clear that they knew the WMD story wasn't true right at the time it was first brought up. The WMD story was clear, wilful duplicity and nothing more.
elihu 4y ago
> "In fact, the exact information he passed along was factually correct by one interpretation. The S-300 rockets were "Russian" in the sense that they were Russian manufacturing. They were not "Russian" in the sense that they were fired by Russian armed forces (to the best of our knowledge)." I think if the reporter knew the missiles were fired by Ukrainian forces but manufactured by Russia, then he's ultimately responsible for communicating that in a clear way that isn't going to be misconstrued to mean something it doesn't. In this case though I think it's more likely that his source told him something that wasn't true, and there was a misunderstanding about just how well-vetted the source was. Whether the reporter is responsible for that is less clear -- in that case it seems like calling it an editorial mistake rather than the reporter's mistake seems reasonable to me.
- ncallaway 4y ago
  > I think if the reporter knew the missiles were fired by Ukrainian forces but manufactured by Russia, then he's ultimately responsible for… I agree with this completely. > In this case though I think it's more likely that his source told him something that wasn't true… My point was that it could also been that the source told him something that was true, but the thing he understood it to mean was false. So, source says “a Russian S-300 missile hit Ukraine” (where Russian was just intended to be a clarification about the manufacture of S-300), the journalist misunderstands as “a Russian launched missile hit Ukraine”, and writes the slack message. Obviously, this is just a hypothetical, but it’s an example of why editorial should’ve waited until they had another source, and taken time to clarify/vet.
ilyt 4y ago
> In fact, the exact information he passed along was factually correct by one interpretation. The S-300 rockets were "Russian" in the sense that they were Russian manufacturing. They were not "Russian" in the sense that they were fired by Russian armed forces (to the best of our knowledge). That's a fucking terrible interpretation. By that interpretation both sides of war in ukraine are russian coz UA happened to use some of russian equipment... Actually no, it's not terrible, it's outright malicious
- BuckyBeaver 4y ago
  Not to mention all of the American munitions raining down all over the world.
- ncallaway 4y ago
  > By that interpretation both sides of war in ukraine are russian Well, no, I made a pretty clear distinction about what context we were using "Russian" to refer to. By that interpretation both sides of the war in Ukraine use Russian manufactured weapons. Which isn't a crazy thing to suggest, since it's manifestly true. It seems very likely to me that the journalist meant "Russian-fired rocket". But is that what their source meant? I could easily see a conversation where a source said "Russian missile" referring to the type or manufacture of the missile, and the journalist misunderstood that as "Russian missile" referring to the army who fired it. Clearly, from the context of the slack conversation, this happened quickly without a lot of time to clear up the context.
  - askl56 4y ago
    So if a Boeing plane is shot down in Iran, it would make sense to say "Iranians shoot down American plane"? During the Iran/Iraq war would have made sense to say "American missiles hit American planes in Iraq"?
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      > it would make sense to say "Iranians shoot down American plane"? If you had no idea who the plane belonged to, it wouldn't be very strange to say that it was an American-manufactured plane.
throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
pessimizer 4y ago
Can anybody knowledgeable tell me why Ukraine would have old-ass Soviet missiles left? I would naïvely assume that old munitions would be long gone (aren't we like 8 months in?) and replaced with shiny US stuff.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  I think that they want to get rid of their old stuff (and the best way to do that, is throw it at the Russians). Maybe those missiles were protecting something of a lower priority, than the "shiny" kit. Also, the most important aspect of any enterprise, is the human. These folks trained for years, on Russian kit, and know it backwards and forwards.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    I would assume that they had gotten rid of their old stuff 7 months ago.
    - anikan_vader 4y ago
      It would have been highly unusual for the Ukrainian military to have depleted their entire anti-air arsenal in April, given that, at the time, they weren't receiving Western high-altitude anti-air systems. (Nor were they facing a persistent campaign by Russian warplanes deep behind the front line, since by that point the Russian air force had largely given up on straying deep into Ukraine.)
- coolspot 4y ago
  RU didn’t really use its airforce to deplete UA’s AA missiles (S-300 can’t lock on low altitude cruise missile). Also because UA was a buffer between NATO and other Soviet territory it inherited a lot of AA missiles (thousands, maybe lower 10s of thousands).
- maoeurk 4y ago
  Ukraine has captured a lot of Russian equipment during the recent Russian retreats. I’ve even seen it claimed in the past few months that Russia was, at points, the number 1 supplier of Ukraine in terms of equipment due to how much they left behind. [1] If you’re interested in this topic and have some time, I’d recommend https://youtu.be/sNLTE75B0Os https://youtu.be/sNLTE75B0Os [1]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-new-offensive-is-fueled-by-captured-russian-weapons-11664965264 https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-new-offensive-is-fuele...
mc32 4y ago
Do people often say when reporting on wars: Chinese AK-47s killed 20 civilians in Afghanistan, or do they say 10 Isis fighters fired AK-47s killing twenty civilians in Kabul? Oh, Twenty American guided missiles killed Houthi fighters —but but they were fired by Saudi Arabian forces from Saudi Arabia. Or French Exocet missiles killed blah blah blah in blah blah blah (without further context?) You want to know who in hell fired them not who the hell actually manufactured the damned armaments. WTF kind of idiotic reporting is that?
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  Now that you mention it though this should be stated every time. Certainly not instead of, but in addition yes.
  - mc32 4y ago
    It's academic yes, but in a murder investigation you want to know who had the gun and pulled the trigger not so much what make it was. For evidentiary purposes, yes, you want to know what exact gun it was and who manufactured it, but that's not at all the point of a murder trial. you want to know who the perp was.
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      War weapons are not really like murder weapons in this sense. If you want to stick with that metaphor, the country of manufacture here is more like the friend who bought the gun for the murderer. That sort of relationship is very relevant in a trial.
      - mc32 4y ago
        I don't recall reporters customarily mentioning the country of origin/manufacture of weaponry unless it was germane to the discussion. When they report ISIS or Taliban killing people they might mention it was with AK-47s but they don't mention where they were manufactured. They may say things like The Taliban are buying AK-47s from China which they then issue to their members. If this reporter wanted to be correct, they likely want to say Soviet missile fired by Ukraine, given the age of the missile fired, it was likely of vintage manufacture.
miguelazo 4y ago
This is an absurd interpretation.

ajross 4y ago

That seems likely, but you still don't let the reporter off the hook. "Technically correct by one interpretation" isn't the standard for journalistic sourcing. He needed another source or more context (just an identification of these as AA missiles would have been enough to kill the story) and didn't get one. It was a messup on a few different axes, but it's started with bad journalism. Whether or not the guy was fired as a scapegoat or to cover up someone else's mistake is, heh, not something we have reportable sourcing for.

thaumasiotes 4y ago
> just an identification of these as AA missiles would have been enough to kill the story I understand why "Russia fires on Poland" is news. Why is "Ukraine fires on Poland, blames Russia" not news?
- ajross 4y ago
  > Why is "Ukraine fires on Poland, blames Russia" not news? Because that's not what happened? That's spin. In fact Ukraine jumped on this story only once the AP published it. It's popular to attribute this to Ukrainian propaganda in some circles, but (heh, again getting to the actual subject at hand) that's not something you can report unless you can find evidence. All the facts we know point to the Ukrainian government being just as fooled by the AP story as we were.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    And it’s not impossible to dream up a world where that kind of mistake would actually get Article 5 moving.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    Ukraine is still insisting that they didn't fire the missile. It's not an oversight or a misinterpretation.
  - eshch 4y ago
    Ukraine should know not from AP whose missile it was, but they are still in denial, can you imagine?
- millzlane 4y ago
  Probably because Ukraine didn't fire on Poland they fired on armament launched by Russia.
- HWR_14 4y ago
  Two main reasons 1) Article 5. If Poland is attacked NATO would have to use whatever force was needed to protect it. In Russia's case, that means war against a nuclear power. In Ukraine's case, it means telling them NATO'll stop delivering weapons and Ukraine can fight Russia alone unless they apologize. Even if there was a war with Ukraine, it's not a nuclear power and wouldn't last long against NATO. 2) It was an accident. Russia launching on Poland could have been intentional. Ukraine almost certainly did it by mistake. (BTW, Russia apologizing in an hour and paying reparations would likely also have had no long term effect). Since it was an accident Ukraine probably blamed Russia thinking it was Russia since they didn't think they had done it. And by "blamed" I mean, it was after the AP story brought it to light. So more like denied it was them. Fog of war and all.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > Russia launching on Poland could have been intentional. If we assume that Russia is dying to give NATO an excuse to escalate, i.e. that they're insane and want to destroy the world.
    - HWR_14 4y ago
      If you replace "Russia" with "Putin" it's possible that he would rather end the world than lose in Ukraine. And it's possible that he would need to generate the escalation to justify ordering the ICBMs to fly, otherwise the commanders might decline.
      - pessimizer 4y ago
        There's a celebrity Putin created by propaganda who is a rabid foaming maniac, and there's the real Putin, who hasn't ever seemed particularly irrational, or even overly adventurous. There's also a war with Russia, a whole country, that a lot of people have sought to reduce to Putin, but as adults we don't have to pretend that Russia is an appendage to a single great man's will.
        HWR_14 4y ago
- vkou 4y ago
  > Why is "Ukraine fires on Poland, blames Russia" not news? The same reason that a lot of people assumed that "Russia fires a single missile at Poland" was not an obvious, tragic accident from the get-go. Motivated thinking.
- elihu 4y ago
  Because there's no intentionality involved, and it's unlikely to escalate into a military conflict. "Ukraine fires an S-300 at a Russian missile but it misses and kills a couple people in Poland" is a tragic accident, probably newsworthy, but not in the same way as Russia or Ukraine deliberately launching missiles into Poland would. I think Russia deserves most of the blame for this incident, since it wouldn't have happened if they weren't trying to destroy their neighbor. Zelensky continuing to insist the missile that hit Poland was launched by Russia would be news I suppose. I think that's what he was saying early on, but I haven't been following the story; maybe he gave up on that once more information came out.
HWR_14 4y ago
> . He needed another source or more context To publish, maybe. He was at a doctors appointment, got a tip, and passed it to his boss. He didn't write the news alert. If they wanted more context, the other people on the chat should have found some.
- ajross 4y ago
  That's not how I read the linked story? That particular Slack message happened to coincide with his doctor's appointment, but the article that printed had his byline on it. Surely he wrote it, or at the very least dictated it to an editor who put it in the system. No one publishes stories on the wire based on a two-message slack thread sent from the doctor's office!
  - remarkEon 4y ago
    Unfortunately, and unless AP releases something further in the way of explaining this, we don’t actually know if that’s what happened. Their retraction note is very brief, and simply states the information was wrong. Edit: pasting the entire message > WARSAW, Poland (AP) — In earlier versions of a story published November 15, 2022, The Associated Press reported erroneously, based on information from a senior American intelligence official who spoke on condition of anonymity, that Russian missiles had crossed into Poland and killed two people. Subsequent reporting showed that the missiles were Russian-made and most likely fired by Ukraine in defense against a Russian attack. https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-zelenskyy-kherson-9202c032cf3a5c22761ee71b52ff9d52 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-zelenskyy-kher...
  - HWR_14 4y ago
    What article with his byline? It looks like someone else wrote the news alert that's discussed in the linked article.
  - Jarwain 4y ago
    That's exactly what it looks like happened, though! He posts the received tip at 1:32, mentions his doctors appt at 1:38. Lisa says sending alert at 1:40.
defrost 4y ago
It started with commonplace entry level potential story journalism. The reporter literally passed on a tip that missiles (alleged to be Russian type missiles) had landed in Poland (true). He also passed on that this came from a previously vetted source (also true). After this point the story was literally in the hands of the editorial staff.
- sundvor 4y ago
  Lisa: "Can we report from that or do we need confirmation from another source". James: "That call is above my pay grade" + "I'm at a doctor's appointment". Zeina says "source is vetted". Newsflash sent. Then later retracted. Laporta fired. Just flabbergasting.
chiefalchemist 4y ago
Not to sound like a wise-ass but by defintion there is no such thing as bad journalism. If you're doing "bad journalism" you're doing journalism at all. Giving such credit (even with the disclaimer of bad) where credit is *no* due is why the "news media" has become so pathetic and Orwellian. It's sad to see a profession that doesn't even know its own definition and standards. They can be clueless, that doesn't mean the rest of us have to be complicit. https://kottke.org/20/01/jim-lehrers-rules-of-journalism-1 https://kottke.org/20/01/jim-lehrers-rules-of-journalism-1
ncallaway 4y ago
> He needed another source or more context (just an identification of these as AA missiles would have been enough to kill the story) and didn't get one. Did you read the slack chat? The journalist 100% does not need another source to inform his internal team of the initial story or the sourcing. Did the journalist make the decision to publish? NO! They said that decision was above their pay grade. When people asked for clarifying information, they said they didn't have any. That's why it was an editorial mistake. Frankly, I simply don't see how you can conclude the journalist needed another source, given that it clearly it wasn't their decision to publish the article. That was an...editorial decision! Which is why I think the blame for publishing without enough information should go to...the editorial team
eshch 4y ago
>just an identification of these as AA missiles would have been enough to kill the story Oh, you don't know the story how Ukraine constantly blames Russia for striking civilians by repurposed S-300 missiles! I bet this is the reason they are still in denial about the Poland incident. Because it breaks the legend and points to the real cause: issues with the missiles they launched. Meanwhile there is a constant flow of videos where Ukraine's S-300 missiles fly into land.

andrewclunn 4y ago

More likely this was akin to the WMD reports and Iraq. There's a conclusion and and information that supports it is fast tracked and not given due diligence. Then the retraction and correction is far more muted. This isn't a bug, it's a feature of modern media propaganda.

alasdair_ 4y ago
The WMD reports were obviously false at the time and the people peddling those lies clearly understood what they were doing. That wasn't a case of something being missed in the heat of the moment and discovered later - tens of millions of people took to the streets in protest and all of them were making it VERY clear that they knew the WMD story wasn't true right at the time it was first brought up. The WMD story was clear, wilful duplicity and nothing more.

elihu 4y ago

> "In fact, the exact information he passed along was factually correct by one interpretation. The S-300 rockets were "Russian" in the sense that they were Russian manufacturing. They were not "Russian" in the sense that they were fired by Russian armed forces (to the best of our knowledge)." I think if the reporter knew the missiles were fired by Ukrainian forces but manufactured by Russia, then he's ultimately responsible for communicating that in a clear way that isn't going to be misconstrued to mean something it doesn't. In this case though I think it's more likely that his source told him something that wasn't true, and there was a misunderstanding about just how well-vetted the source was. Whether the reporter is responsible for that is less clear -- in that case it seems like calling it an editorial mistake rather than the reporter's mistake seems reasonable to me.

ncallaway 4y ago
> I think if the reporter knew the missiles were fired by Ukrainian forces but manufactured by Russia, then he's ultimately responsible for… I agree with this completely. > In this case though I think it's more likely that his source told him something that wasn't true… My point was that it could also been that the source told him something that was true, but the thing he understood it to mean was false. So, source says “a Russian S-300 missile hit Ukraine” (where Russian was just intended to be a clarification about the manufacture of S-300), the journalist misunderstands as “a Russian launched missile hit Ukraine”, and writes the slack message. Obviously, this is just a hypothetical, but it’s an example of why editorial should’ve waited until they had another source, and taken time to clarify/vet.

ilyt 4y ago

> In fact, the exact information he passed along was factually correct by one interpretation. The S-300 rockets were "Russian" in the sense that they were Russian manufacturing. They were not "Russian" in the sense that they were fired by Russian armed forces (to the best of our knowledge). That's a fucking terrible interpretation. By that interpretation both sides of war in ukraine are russian coz UA happened to use some of russian equipment... Actually no, it's not terrible, it's outright malicious

BuckyBeaver 4y ago
Not to mention all of the American munitions raining down all over the world.
ncallaway 4y ago
> By that interpretation both sides of war in ukraine are russian Well, no, I made a pretty clear distinction about what context we were using "Russian" to refer to. By that interpretation both sides of the war in Ukraine use Russian manufactured weapons. Which isn't a crazy thing to suggest, since it's manifestly true. It seems very likely to me that the journalist meant "Russian-fired rocket". But is that what their source meant? I could easily see a conversation where a source said "Russian missile" referring to the type or manufacture of the missile, and the journalist misunderstood that as "Russian missile" referring to the army who fired it. Clearly, from the context of the slack conversation, this happened quickly without a lot of time to clear up the context.
- askl56 4y ago
  So if a Boeing plane is shot down in Iran, it would make sense to say "Iranians shoot down American plane"? During the Iran/Iraq war would have made sense to say "American missiles hit American planes in Iraq"?
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > it would make sense to say "Iranians shoot down American plane"? If you had no idea who the plane belonged to, it wouldn't be very strange to say that it was an American-manufactured plane.

throwaway0x7E6 4y ago

pessimizer 4y ago

Can anybody knowledgeable tell me why Ukraine would have old-ass Soviet missiles left? I would naïvely assume that old munitions would be long gone (aren't we like 8 months in?) and replaced with shiny US stuff.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
I think that they want to get rid of their old stuff (and the best way to do that, is throw it at the Russians). Maybe those missiles were protecting something of a lower priority, than the "shiny" kit. Also, the most important aspect of any enterprise, is the human. These folks trained for years, on Russian kit, and know it backwards and forwards.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  I would assume that they had gotten rid of their old stuff 7 months ago.
  - anikan_vader 4y ago
    It would have been highly unusual for the Ukrainian military to have depleted their entire anti-air arsenal in April, given that, at the time, they weren't receiving Western high-altitude anti-air systems. (Nor were they facing a persistent campaign by Russian warplanes deep behind the front line, since by that point the Russian air force had largely given up on straying deep into Ukraine.)
coolspot 4y ago
RU didn’t really use its airforce to deplete UA’s AA missiles (S-300 can’t lock on low altitude cruise missile). Also because UA was a buffer between NATO and other Soviet territory it inherited a lot of AA missiles (thousands, maybe lower 10s of thousands).
maoeurk 4y ago
Ukraine has captured a lot of Russian equipment during the recent Russian retreats. I’ve even seen it claimed in the past few months that Russia was, at points, the number 1 supplier of Ukraine in terms of equipment due to how much they left behind. [1] If you’re interested in this topic and have some time, I’d recommend https://youtu.be/sNLTE75B0Os https://youtu.be/sNLTE75B0Os [1]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-new-offensive-is-fueled-by-captured-russian-weapons-11664965264 https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-new-offensive-is-fuele...

mc32 4y ago

Do people often say when reporting on wars: Chinese AK-47s killed 20 civilians in Afghanistan, or do they say 10 Isis fighters fired AK-47s killing twenty civilians in Kabul? Oh, Twenty American guided missiles killed Houthi fighters —but but they were fired by Saudi Arabian forces from Saudi Arabia. Or French Exocet missiles killed blah blah blah in blah blah blah (without further context?) You want to know who in hell fired them not who the hell actually manufactured the damned armaments. WTF kind of idiotic reporting is that?

giraffe_lady 4y ago
Now that you mention it though this should be stated every time. Certainly not instead of, but in addition yes.
- mc32 4y ago
  It's academic yes, but in a murder investigation you want to know who had the gun and pulled the trigger not so much what make it was. For evidentiary purposes, yes, you want to know what exact gun it was and who manufactured it, but that's not at all the point of a murder trial. you want to know who the perp was.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    War weapons are not really like murder weapons in this sense. If you want to stick with that metaphor, the country of manufacture here is more like the friend who bought the gun for the murderer. That sort of relationship is very relevant in a trial.
    - mc32 4y ago
      I don't recall reporters customarily mentioning the country of origin/manufacture of weaponry unless it was germane to the discussion. When they report ISIS or Taliban killing people they might mention it was with AK-47s but they don't mention where they were manufactured. They may say things like The Taliban are buying AK-47s from China which they then issue to their members. If this reporter wanted to be correct, they likely want to say Soviet missile fired by Ukraine, given the age of the missile fired, it was likely of vintage manufacture.

miguelazo 4y ago

This is an absurd interpretation.