6 ms·

Crypto and Other New Faiths

22 points by Ariarule 4y ago

junofan 4y ago
This covers the retail side. However I think there’s a lot to be said about modern, global, 24/7 infrastructure for institutions. Maybe crypto needs a rebrand.
- twblalock 4y ago
  > However I think there’s a lot to be said about modern, global, 24/7 infrastructure for institutions. Ok, then say it! And explain how those institutions will be better served by crypto than what they currently use.
- NotYourLawyer 4y ago
  They already have that. It’s called a database. Not clear to me how making it orders of magnitude slower and more expensive serves institutions well.
  - shakow 4y ago
    IMU, the golden use case for crypto would be a database, but for entities that are in a perpetual Mexican standoff. So I guess that theorically, in its current form or another, it may find very good uses in e.g. exchanges (I know, bold of me to write this days after the whole FTX shabang).
    - felixgallo 4y ago
      Exchanges have existed since the beginning of time as neutral third party arbitration systems for entities that do not mutually trust each other to nevertheless transact. They use regular databases.
    - twblalock 4y ago
      I've bought cars and houses and never had a problem. If I had enough money I could buy yachts, or airplanes, or entire companies. All of this could be done with the systems we have today. I cannot think of anything that is for sale that could not be purchased with dollars, if I had enough dollars. What problem does crypto really solve?
      - NotYourLawyer 4y ago
        Ransomware payments.
jrm4 4y ago
Meh. I think to write about this intelligently you need to include the fact that there is definitely and provably "new tech" in here that can be world changing depending on how humans choose to use it? This isn't a guarantee that it will be used well, but at least a base mention of the new thing they are looking at and the ways in which it could work need to be discussed.
- D13Fd 4y ago
  > there is definitely and provably "new tech" in here that can be world changing depending on how humans choose to use it How so?
  - jrm4 4y ago
    I literally do know a Russian guy that uses Stellar to send money home to momma, because all the other ways take middlemen. Blockchain money can cut out a LOT of the BS that people deal with in day-to-day transactions. To think otherwise would be to assume that the entities that handle money have our best interests in mind and aren't essentially "skimming off the top," but of course, that's what they're doing. Now, again, I'm aware that the big factor is "adoption and practicality" and switching to something like that means overcoming a great deal of inertia. But the theoretical possibilities mean something.
    - Yizahi 4y ago
      Sure that is a great working use case of tokens. The ONLY existing working use case though. To summarise it in short form - tokens allow people to avoid law. Any law - both laws in oppressive regimes focused on robbing its citizens, and in the legitimate countries where people are basically washing dirty stolen money, or avoiding taxes. And tokens provide (theoretically) indiscriminate access for such law avoidance to everyone, be they beggars or billionaires. To paraphrase - tokenbros frame their invention as kitchen knives, sure some people are killing others with kitchen knives, but that's the rounding error compared to the legitimate usage. On the other hand, in my personal opinion, tokens are closer to nukes or bioweapons, than to kitchen knives. Sure, libertarians may argue that if every single person a on planet would be armed with an athrax throwing gun we would be very independent and free. But in reality of course power would quickly coalesce in the hand of neofeudal lords, and humanity will quickly degrade instead of improving. Weapon analogy is about financial impact. Sure, if every person could send any amount of money anywhere without any questions, then at first we will thing it's great. I personally could benefit from it too. But in reality billionaries operating outside of the law (remember - tokes provide equal access) will screw us a lot more, than the benefits gained from a few undeclared and untaxed private transactions.
bartvk 4y ago
Why does crypto on HN always seem to be polarizing? This article too is theorizing that people who are attracted to crypto, wish for the current banking system to be overthrown and thus they are mentally unstable. Sigh. You know what’s also possible? Put 5% of your savings into Bitcoin and then continue to live your normal life.
- dale_glass 4y ago
  Nobody talks about people who just quietly do things and don't tell anybody. All the talk is about dramatic stuff happening. But other than that, putting 5% rather than betting your entire life on it still suggests some sort of expectation that this might actually be good for something -- unless you're the rare person who actually spends significant amounts of money mostly at random. If by chance you are, then the conversation isn't really about you. You're just allocating a percentage to a dice throw without any other reasoning, hoping it might actually bring profit by pure chance.
  - bartvk 4y ago
    > allocating a percentage to a dice throw without any other reasoning Do you feel the same about stocks?
    - dale_glass 4y ago
      Sure, it's a possibility. There has to be people out there whose entire reasoning for buying a stock is "I have no clue what this company does or why this is valuable, but a whole bunch of people are talking about it, so maybe they're onto something, so I'll throw some disposable income at it just in case".
- gonzo41 4y ago
  I know a guy, who's great great, a few more great's, grandfather was part of a land race in Australia, where the rules where you could have as much crown land as you could fence in a day. His ancestors smart trick was to fence across a peninsula. Crypto is attractive because it has a lot of hype that make people think that it may be a viable way to get a first mover advantage and stake a claim on easy wealth. This thinking is IMO, stemming from the inequality that is present in modern society. Remember all those bankers that went to jail forever for the 2008 crash. Me neither. It is easy to say, comparison is the thief of joy. But it's hard to ignore every single media source gaslighting you about the simple ability of others to live great lives whilst your lift may not be so flash hot. Crypto is like a lottery ticket for a lot of people.
rib3ye 4y ago
Bitcoin had organic usage and, thus, value before the hype of 2013. You can still find old online poker videos of people with substantial BTC balances making $10 bets that would be worth millions today. So if we agree on that (I know, big IF), can we get past the "religion" argument and label these people correctly as "gamblers"?
- snoot 4y ago
  Gambling addicts might be more accurate.
oleganza 4y ago
Bitcoin is quite literally a religion. It has dogmas ("not your keys, not your coins"), traditional values ("21 mil"), a prophet (satoshi), celebrated dates (Jan 3). On the serious side, Bitcoin is all about "let's all agree this is money". This means it's a useful tool only after you play the social game. Technology does not matter if people don't get to a consensus on it, but when they do (and they seem to continuously re-enforce this consensus over years), it works better and better.
The_Colonel 4y ago
The quasi-religious nature of the Bitcoin/crypto community has been a big turn-off for me - the systems where evidence is replaced with belief are naturally suspicious.
nubb 4y ago
hacker news talking about crypto is like your racist maga boomer uncle talking about crt.
- twblalock 4y ago
  No it's like the most successful people in the world talking about things they know about -- and most people here see crypto for the fantasy it is, and the scam that many players have made it become. There is also a small but vocal pro-crypto contingent here. Both sides are represented. What more could you want?
  - throwup 4y ago
    > hacker news > the most successful people in the world LOL thanks for the laugh, this is peak HN right here

22 points by Ariarule 4y ago

This covers the retail side. However I think there’s a lot to be said about modern, global, 24/7 infrastructure for institutions. Maybe crypto needs a rebrand.

twblalock 4y ago
> However I think there’s a lot to be said about modern, global, 24/7 infrastructure for institutions. Ok, then say it! And explain how those institutions will be better served by crypto than what they currently use.
NotYourLawyer 4y ago
They already have that. It’s called a database. Not clear to me how making it orders of magnitude slower and more expensive serves institutions well.
- shakow 4y ago
  IMU, the golden use case for crypto would be a database, but for entities that are in a perpetual Mexican standoff. So I guess that theorically, in its current form or another, it may find very good uses in e.g. exchanges (I know, bold of me to write this days after the whole FTX shabang).
  - felixgallo 4y ago
    Exchanges have existed since the beginning of time as neutral third party arbitration systems for entities that do not mutually trust each other to nevertheless transact. They use regular databases.
  - twblalock 4y ago
    I've bought cars and houses and never had a problem. If I had enough money I could buy yachts, or airplanes, or entire companies. All of this could be done with the systems we have today. I cannot think of anything that is for sale that could not be purchased with dollars, if I had enough dollars. What problem does crypto really solve?
    - NotYourLawyer 4y ago
      Ransomware payments.

jrm4 4y ago

Meh. I think to write about this intelligently you need to include the fact that there is definitely and provably "new tech" in here that can be world changing depending on how humans choose to use it? This isn't a guarantee that it will be used well, but at least a base mention of the new thing they are looking at and the ways in which it could work need to be discussed.

D13Fd 4y ago
> there is definitely and provably "new tech" in here that can be world changing depending on how humans choose to use it How so?
- jrm4 4y ago
  I literally do know a Russian guy that uses Stellar to send money home to momma, because all the other ways take middlemen. Blockchain money can cut out a LOT of the BS that people deal with in day-to-day transactions. To think otherwise would be to assume that the entities that handle money have our best interests in mind and aren't essentially "skimming off the top," but of course, that's what they're doing. Now, again, I'm aware that the big factor is "adoption and practicality" and switching to something like that means overcoming a great deal of inertia. But the theoretical possibilities mean something.
  - Yizahi 4y ago
    Sure that is a great working use case of tokens. The ONLY existing working use case though. To summarise it in short form - tokens allow people to avoid law. Any law - both laws in oppressive regimes focused on robbing its citizens, and in the legitimate countries where people are basically washing dirty stolen money, or avoiding taxes. And tokens provide (theoretically) indiscriminate access for such law avoidance to everyone, be they beggars or billionaires. To paraphrase - tokenbros frame their invention as kitchen knives, sure some people are killing others with kitchen knives, but that's the rounding error compared to the legitimate usage. On the other hand, in my personal opinion, tokens are closer to nukes or bioweapons, than to kitchen knives. Sure, libertarians may argue that if every single person a on planet would be armed with an athrax throwing gun we would be very independent and free. But in reality of course power would quickly coalesce in the hand of neofeudal lords, and humanity will quickly degrade instead of improving. Weapon analogy is about financial impact. Sure, if every person could send any amount of money anywhere without any questions, then at first we will thing it's great. I personally could benefit from it too. But in reality billionaries operating outside of the law (remember - tokes provide equal access) will screw us a lot more, than the benefits gained from a few undeclared and untaxed private transactions.

bartvk 4y ago

Why does crypto on HN always seem to be polarizing? This article too is theorizing that people who are attracted to crypto, wish for the current banking system to be overthrown and thus they are mentally unstable. Sigh. You know what’s also possible? Put 5% of your savings into Bitcoin and then continue to live your normal life.

dale_glass 4y ago
Nobody talks about people who just quietly do things and don't tell anybody. All the talk is about dramatic stuff happening. But other than that, putting 5% rather than betting your entire life on it still suggests some sort of expectation that this might actually be good for something -- unless you're the rare person who actually spends significant amounts of money mostly at random. If by chance you are, then the conversation isn't really about you. You're just allocating a percentage to a dice throw without any other reasoning, hoping it might actually bring profit by pure chance.
- bartvk 4y ago
  > allocating a percentage to a dice throw without any other reasoning Do you feel the same about stocks?
  - dale_glass 4y ago
    Sure, it's a possibility. There has to be people out there whose entire reasoning for buying a stock is "I have no clue what this company does or why this is valuable, but a whole bunch of people are talking about it, so maybe they're onto something, so I'll throw some disposable income at it just in case".
gonzo41 4y ago
I know a guy, who's great great, a few more great's, grandfather was part of a land race in Australia, where the rules where you could have as much crown land as you could fence in a day. His ancestors smart trick was to fence across a peninsula. Crypto is attractive because it has a lot of hype that make people think that it may be a viable way to get a first mover advantage and stake a claim on easy wealth. This thinking is IMO, stemming from the inequality that is present in modern society. Remember all those bankers that went to jail forever for the 2008 crash. Me neither. It is easy to say, comparison is the thief of joy. But it's hard to ignore every single media source gaslighting you about the simple ability of others to live great lives whilst your lift may not be so flash hot. Crypto is like a lottery ticket for a lot of people.

rib3ye 4y ago

Bitcoin had organic usage and, thus, value before the hype of 2013. You can still find old online poker videos of people with substantial BTC balances making $10 bets that would be worth millions today. So if we agree on that (I know, big IF), can we get past the "religion" argument and label these people correctly as "gamblers"?

snoot 4y ago
Gambling addicts might be more accurate.

oleganza 4y ago

Bitcoin is quite literally a religion. It has dogmas ("not your keys, not your coins"), traditional values ("21 mil"), a prophet (satoshi), celebrated dates (Jan 3). On the serious side, Bitcoin is all about "let's all agree this is money". This means it's a useful tool only after you play the social game. Technology does not matter if people don't get to a consensus on it, but when they do (and they seem to continuously re-enforce this consensus over years), it works better and better.

The_Colonel 4y ago

The quasi-religious nature of the Bitcoin/crypto community has been a big turn-off for me - the systems where evidence is replaced with belief are naturally suspicious.

nubb 4y ago

hacker news talking about crypto is like your racist maga boomer uncle talking about crt.

twblalock 4y ago
No it's like the most successful people in the world talking about things they know about -- and most people here see crypto for the fantasy it is, and the scam that many players have made it become. There is also a small but vocal pro-crypto contingent here. Both sides are represented. What more could you want?
- throwup 4y ago
  > hacker news > the most successful people in the world LOL thanks for the laugh, this is peak HN right here