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I think you are jumping to your desired conclusion here. Even if we take your vastly at face value, there are so many reasons people switch languages, and probl

I think you are jumping to your desired conclusion here. Even if we take your vastly at face value, there are so many reasons people switch languages, and problematic language evolution is not the only possible reason.

Retric 4y ago
What else would you suggest for the falling popularity of Java from it’s mid 2000’s peak? Some of this is just fads, but I think languages tend to suit the time period when they are most popular. In 1990 C was a hugely dominant force because it suited the kinds of programs being written and the hardware available. IMO Java was a great compromise for late 90’s hardware, but different tradeoffs are becoming more useful resulting in Python’s rise. Much of this could be fixed with a better tooling and an overhauled standard library, but basic language pitfalls are still a problem.
- eternalban 4y ago
  My perception: There were waves. First wave of leaving Java was for RoR. Then there was a period where we had all these JVM languages, with Scala, JRuby, & finally Closure. Then a bit later came Go, which is when I switched. So why. First wave was due to the god awful experience of building web apps on app-servers. Remember how tedious that was? I forget the names, but there were so many frameworks. And of course imo things like JSPs and Spring also definitely played a part in motivating seeking more pleasant pastures. So this I would chalk to impedance mismatch between Java and the browser tech. Second wave was more about 'language'. FP. DSLs. Rich Hickey! State is not identity! :) Third wave was, imo, due to a more seismic shift that included more victims than just Java. This was the beginning of the noSQL era, "simplifying", Redis! What a breath of fresh air. Again, not that Redis made people switch languages, but that there was a shift in mindset as to how to build software. Java all of a sudden looked like the RDBMs second cousin. Then the cloud. JVM startup times. Memory footprint, etc. I stopped following Java's progress after 2008, but sense this was the period when the Java stewards finally were motivated to be more adventurous with new features. But in the meantime, Go ended up being the server side networking champ. But now, with things like GraalVM, I'm actually excited to switch back to Java as my main lang again. Concurrent with all this, fads as you mention; amplification of unseasoned voices via blog-sphere that shifted mindshare; and just the basic human need to seek variety.
  - Retric 4y ago
    That’s fair. I would add the Oracle acquisition of Sun and subsequent missteps shouldn’t be ignored. There was a huge wave of negative publicity and uncertainty which played off of the perception of being the new COBOL with a helping of factory.factory_endless_boilerplate_word_salid. Java’s fragmentation also didn’t help as even just web technology evolution though Applets, Servlets, JavaBeans, Spring, JSF etc without letting people settle into something that just worked reasonably cleanly. The perception was always that there was tons of legacy options and sometimes multiple hot new fads creating an endless treadmill where working on the same thing for 4 years left you behind the curve rather than a productive environment. By comparison .Net benefited from the second mover advantage. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish didn’t work but uniformity brought it’s own advantages and they could always copy and tweak something when it was clearly better. Finally, there was a perception that the kind of companies using Java where exactly the kind of companies that would soon outsource jobs to India or just underpay and replace everyone with H1B’s.

Retric 4y ago

What else would you suggest for the falling popularity of Java from it’s mid 2000’s peak? Some of this is just fads, but I think languages tend to suit the time period when they are most popular. In 1990 C was a hugely dominant force because it suited the kinds of programs being written and the hardware available. IMO Java was a great compromise for late 90’s hardware, but different tradeoffs are becoming more useful resulting in Python’s rise. Much of this could be fixed with a better tooling and an overhauled standard library, but basic language pitfalls are still a problem.

eternalban 4y ago
My perception: There were waves. First wave of leaving Java was for RoR. Then there was a period where we had all these JVM languages, with Scala, JRuby, & finally Closure. Then a bit later came Go, which is when I switched. So why. First wave was due to the god awful experience of building web apps on app-servers. Remember how tedious that was? I forget the names, but there were so many frameworks. And of course imo things like JSPs and Spring also definitely played a part in motivating seeking more pleasant pastures. So this I would chalk to impedance mismatch between Java and the browser tech. Second wave was more about 'language'. FP. DSLs. Rich Hickey! State is not identity! :) Third wave was, imo, due to a more seismic shift that included more victims than just Java. This was the beginning of the noSQL era, "simplifying", Redis! What a breath of fresh air. Again, not that Redis made people switch languages, but that there was a shift in mindset as to how to build software. Java all of a sudden looked like the RDBMs second cousin. Then the cloud. JVM startup times. Memory footprint, etc. I stopped following Java's progress after 2008, but sense this was the period when the Java stewards finally were motivated to be more adventurous with new features. But in the meantime, Go ended up being the server side networking champ. But now, with things like GraalVM, I'm actually excited to switch back to Java as my main lang again. Concurrent with all this, fads as you mention; amplification of unseasoned voices via blog-sphere that shifted mindshare; and just the basic human need to seek variety.
- Retric 4y ago
  That’s fair. I would add the Oracle acquisition of Sun and subsequent missteps shouldn’t be ignored. There was a huge wave of negative publicity and uncertainty which played off of the perception of being the new COBOL with a helping of factory.factory_endless_boilerplate_word_salid. Java’s fragmentation also didn’t help as even just web technology evolution though Applets, Servlets, JavaBeans, Spring, JSF etc without letting people settle into something that just worked reasonably cleanly. The perception was always that there was tons of legacy options and sometimes multiple hot new fads creating an endless treadmill where working on the same thing for 4 years left you behind the curve rather than a productive environment. By comparison .Net benefited from the second mover advantage. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish didn’t work but uniformity brought it’s own advantages and they could always copy and tweak something when it was clearly better. Finally, there was a perception that the kind of companies using Java where exactly the kind of companies that would soon outsource jobs to India or just underpay and replace everyone with H1B’s.