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>You have one life, if you don't wan't to live it as a forced laborer, why should you? Why would you? Because until recently in history, the choices for most h

>You have one life, if you don't wan't to live it as a forced laborer, why should you? Why would you? Because until recently in history, the choices for most humans was work or starve. And nowadays the choice is work or take advantage of the generosity of others. And note that said "generosity" is usually collected under threat of violence via taxation. So if you feel morally ok taking advantage of those who actually do work, you do you. Just don't be surprised when those who do work resent and despise you.

kubb 4y ago
When I hear this sentiment I'm always completely baffled, because it sounds like the person expressing it lives in some other world than I do. No country that I know of allows you to collect unemployment benefits forever. You get maybe 1-2 years to find a new job, and after that they leave you on your own. This usually means homelessness. As a homeless person, you might get some food, but many starve and freeze. By no means is that a secure existence.
- luckylion 4y ago
  You're not aware that most of Europe exists? What?
  - kubb 4y ago
    No country in Europe that I know of will give you unemployment benefits forever. There are 44 countries here, please back up your claim and name 10 where you can live without working indefinitely. Otherwise, I'm going to have to assume that you're making stuff up.
    - HideousKojima 4y ago
      There are other welfare benefits besides unemployment, even in the US. If you qualify for food stamps, medicaid, and section 8 housing you can live without starving or freezing to death, no unemployment benefits needed. I'm sure that comparable types of benefits exist in Europe.
    - luckylion 4y ago
      Is this a joke, or is it some "you don't get unemployment benefits until the end of time, after some months/years you get welfare/social security/some other name" thing? Most European countries have significant percentages of unemployment, and very few people end up on the streets (and starvation is essentially unheard of), that alone should give you a hint that you've missed something in your reading on the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state has an introduction and also contains various links to individual state's current setup. Germany is currently in the process of increasing welfare (Bürgergeld, literally "citizen money") to something like 60% of average post-tax income.
      - kubb 4y ago
        https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bürgergeld https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bürgergeld "Der Regelsatz des neuen Bürgergelds für alleinstehende Erwachsene soll monatlich 502 Euro betragen (von bisher 449 Euro)." Bürgergeld is increasing Arbeitslosengeld 2 aka Harz VI. They want to increase it from 449 to 502 euro per month. https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/arbeitslosengeld-2/auszahlung-dauer https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/arbeitslosengeld-2/auszahlung-... "Arbeitslosengeld II bekommen Sie normalerweise für 12 Monate". You usually get it for 12 months. It sounds like you're having a cognitive dissonance where your idea of what's happening in Germany doesn't match reality. That might explain why you think my post is a joke.
        luckylion 4y ago
        > Bürgergeld is increasing Arbeitslosengeld 2 aka Harz VI. They want to increase it from 449 to 502 euro per month. That's the cash-part of it. They also pay for housing + utilities, health insurance and additional costs, it comes down to about 1000-1200 Euros per months for a single adult. > You usually get it for 12 months. Yes, and then you get it for another 12 months. And then another. And another. They require you to renew your claim once a year ("Folgeantrag", "Weiterbewilligungsantrag"), but there is no limit on total duration, the idea is (allegedly, maybe it's just to annoy people, who knows) that you have to prove your eligibility and you'll commit fraud if your claim is fraudulent.
- lostmsu 4y ago
  I don't think you are really informed on the matter thought. "maybe 1-2 years" here sounds like an educated guess, and the whole point of the article is that that guess is wrong at least in the US.
waboremo 4y ago
The choice for most humans wasn't "work or starve". Back then the concept of "work" didn't exist. You lived your life, you hunted and farmed for nourishment, these tasks while laborous were also incredibly fulfilling. There were no abstract timelines to complete tasks by, you collected eggs because they had to be collected and you harvested crops because your family needs food. Nowadays the choice is "do meaningless tasks to make someone else much wealthier, or cease to exist with the social institutions created explicitly to exploit the lower classes". Why are you morally OK with forcing people into this system of exploitation?
- luckylion 4y ago
  > these tasks while laborous were also incredibly fulfilling This is just romanticizing the past to make it look like a children's book.
  - waboremo 4y ago
    I did not claim we should go back to farm life or that it was perfect, only that these tasks were fulfilling. Are your tasks at work not fulfilling? Perhaps another hour long meeting will give you the same joy as turning your harvested crops into a simple cake. Protip: you will struggle to find any book of the past that brings up their daily routine tasks for sustenance as a major source of agony in the same way we do about our modern office jobs. There is a reason for this and I hope you figure it out soon.

kubb 4y ago

When I hear this sentiment I'm always completely baffled, because it sounds like the person expressing it lives in some other world than I do. No country that I know of allows you to collect unemployment benefits forever. You get maybe 1-2 years to find a new job, and after that they leave you on your own. This usually means homelessness. As a homeless person, you might get some food, but many starve and freeze. By no means is that a secure existence.

luckylion 4y ago
You're not aware that most of Europe exists? What?
- kubb 4y ago
  No country in Europe that I know of will give you unemployment benefits forever. There are 44 countries here, please back up your claim and name 10 where you can live without working indefinitely. Otherwise, I'm going to have to assume that you're making stuff up.
  - HideousKojima 4y ago
    There are other welfare benefits besides unemployment, even in the US. If you qualify for food stamps, medicaid, and section 8 housing you can live without starving or freezing to death, no unemployment benefits needed. I'm sure that comparable types of benefits exist in Europe.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    Is this a joke, or is it some "you don't get unemployment benefits until the end of time, after some months/years you get welfare/social security/some other name" thing? Most European countries have significant percentages of unemployment, and very few people end up on the streets (and starvation is essentially unheard of), that alone should give you a hint that you've missed something in your reading on the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state has an introduction and also contains various links to individual state's current setup. Germany is currently in the process of increasing welfare (Bürgergeld, literally "citizen money") to something like 60% of average post-tax income.
    - kubb 4y ago
      https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bürgergeld https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bürgergeld "Der Regelsatz des neuen Bürgergelds für alleinstehende Erwachsene soll monatlich 502 Euro betragen (von bisher 449 Euro)." Bürgergeld is increasing Arbeitslosengeld 2 aka Harz VI. They want to increase it from 449 to 502 euro per month. https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/arbeitslosengeld-2/auszahlung-dauer https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/arbeitslosengeld-2/auszahlung-... "Arbeitslosengeld II bekommen Sie normalerweise für 12 Monate". You usually get it for 12 months. It sounds like you're having a cognitive dissonance where your idea of what's happening in Germany doesn't match reality. That might explain why you think my post is a joke.
      - luckylion 4y ago
        > Bürgergeld is increasing Arbeitslosengeld 2 aka Harz VI. They want to increase it from 449 to 502 euro per month. That's the cash-part of it. They also pay for housing + utilities, health insurance and additional costs, it comes down to about 1000-1200 Euros per months for a single adult. > You usually get it for 12 months. Yes, and then you get it for another 12 months. And then another. And another. They require you to renew your claim once a year ("Folgeantrag", "Weiterbewilligungsantrag"), but there is no limit on total duration, the idea is (allegedly, maybe it's just to annoy people, who knows) that you have to prove your eligibility and you'll commit fraud if your claim is fraudulent.
lostmsu 4y ago
I don't think you are really informed on the matter thought. "maybe 1-2 years" here sounds like an educated guess, and the whole point of the article is that that guess is wrong at least in the US.

waboremo 4y ago

The choice for most humans wasn't "work or starve". Back then the concept of "work" didn't exist. You lived your life, you hunted and farmed for nourishment, these tasks while laborous were also incredibly fulfilling. There were no abstract timelines to complete tasks by, you collected eggs because they had to be collected and you harvested crops because your family needs food. Nowadays the choice is "do meaningless tasks to make someone else much wealthier, or cease to exist with the social institutions created explicitly to exploit the lower classes". Why are you morally OK with forcing people into this system of exploitation?

luckylion 4y ago
> these tasks while laborous were also incredibly fulfilling This is just romanticizing the past to make it look like a children's book.
- waboremo 4y ago
  I did not claim we should go back to farm life or that it was perfect, only that these tasks were fulfilling. Are your tasks at work not fulfilling? Perhaps another hour long meeting will give you the same joy as turning your harvested crops into a simple cake. Protip: you will struggle to find any book of the past that brings up their daily routine tasks for sustenance as a major source of agony in the same way we do about our modern office jobs. There is a reason for this and I hope you figure it out soon.