6 ms·

The only thing I can say is: I envy these people. I would love to spend my life free from the endless cycle of meaningless work that is the every day reality o

by kubb 4y ago

The only thing I can say is: I envy these people. I would love to spend my life free from the endless cycle of meaningless work that is the every day reality of a software developer. When I have more than a couple days off, I can find happiness and meaning from walking around and looking at a tree. I will have to work for 20 years before I can pay off a house. I don't get that many vacations. I usually spend the weekend recovering. Work sucks out the energy that I would otherwise be able to use for anything that brings me joy. You have one life, if you don't wan't to live it as a forced laborer, why should you? Why would you?

HideousKojima 4y ago
>You have one life, if you don't wan't to live it as a forced laborer, why should you? Why would you? Because until recently in history, the choices for most humans was work or starve. And nowadays the choice is work or take advantage of the generosity of others. And note that said "generosity" is usually collected under threat of violence via taxation. So if you feel morally ok taking advantage of those who actually do work, you do you. Just don't be surprised when those who do work resent and despise you.
- kubb 4y ago
  When I hear this sentiment I'm always completely baffled, because it sounds like the person expressing it lives in some other world than I do. No country that I know of allows you to collect unemployment benefits forever. You get maybe 1-2 years to find a new job, and after that they leave you on your own. This usually means homelessness. As a homeless person, you might get some food, but many starve and freeze. By no means is that a secure existence.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    You're not aware that most of Europe exists? What?
    - kubb 4y ago
      No country in Europe that I know of will give you unemployment benefits forever. There are 44 countries here, please back up your claim and name 10 where you can live without working indefinitely. Otherwise, I'm going to have to assume that you're making stuff up.
      - HideousKojima 4y ago
        There are other welfare benefits besides unemployment, even in the US. If you qualify for food stamps, medicaid, and section 8 housing you can live without starving or freezing to death, no unemployment benefits needed. I'm sure that comparable types of benefits exist in Europe.
      - luckylion 4y ago
        Is this a joke, or is it some "you don't get unemployment benefits until the end of time, after some months/years you get welfare/social security/some other name" thing? Most European countries have significant percentages of unemployment, and very few people end up on the streets (and starvation is essentially unheard of), that alone should give you a hint that you've missed something in your reading on the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state has an introduction and also contains various links to individual state's current setup. Germany is currently in the process of increasing welfare (Bürgergeld, literally "citizen money") to something like 60% of average post-tax income.
        kubb 4y ago
        https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bürgergeld https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bürgergeld "Der Regelsatz des neuen Bürgergelds für alleinstehende Erwachsene soll monatlich 502 Euro betragen (von bisher 449 Euro)." Bürgergeld is increasing Arbeitslosengeld 2 aka Harz VI. They want to increase it from 449 to 502 euro per month. https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/arbeitslosengeld-2/auszahlung-dauer https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/arbeitslosengeld-2/auszahlung-... "Arbeitslosengeld II bekommen Sie normalerweise für 12 Monate". You usually get it for 12 months. It sounds like you're having a cognitive dissonance where your idea of what's happening in Germany doesn't match reality. That might explain why you think my post is a joke.
  - lostmsu 4y ago
    I don't think you are really informed on the matter thought. "maybe 1-2 years" here sounds like an educated guess, and the whole point of the article is that that guess is wrong at least in the US.
- waboremo 4y ago
  The choice for most humans wasn't "work or starve". Back then the concept of "work" didn't exist. You lived your life, you hunted and farmed for nourishment, these tasks while laborous were also incredibly fulfilling. There were no abstract timelines to complete tasks by, you collected eggs because they had to be collected and you harvested crops because your family needs food. Nowadays the choice is "do meaningless tasks to make someone else much wealthier, or cease to exist with the social institutions created explicitly to exploit the lower classes". Why are you morally OK with forcing people into this system of exploitation?
  - luckylion 4y ago
    > these tasks while laborous were also incredibly fulfilling This is just romanticizing the past to make it look like a children's book.
    - waboremo 4y ago
      I did not claim we should go back to farm life or that it was perfect, only that these tasks were fulfilling. Are your tasks at work not fulfilling? Perhaps another hour long meeting will give you the same joy as turning your harvested crops into a simple cake. Protip: you will struggle to find any book of the past that brings up their daily routine tasks for sustenance as a major source of agony in the same way we do about our modern office jobs. There is a reason for this and I hope you figure it out soon.
pelagicAustral 4y ago
You should come work to the Falkland Islands... You can strike quite a nice balance if you can cope with less money and moderate isolation.
- kubb 4y ago
  Huh, what is it about that place that makes it possible?
  - pelagicAustral 4y ago
    Well, it's a small place. You hardly spend any time commuting. Work hours are 0800-1630 with an hour lunch which leaves you with plenty of time to do other activities. Work culture is quite relaxed, no rushing as long as projects get done. Internet is decent enough that you can work remotely, if thats your thing. 1,5 hour flight to the continent. Downside is that software engineering is not really a thing, so you really need to make an effort to get a job, but once you're in you will have no serious concerns like those you mention... additionally there is a lot of potential for meaningful work, or plenty of avenues to help the community with your talent. It's not perfect,not at all... but it's a much simpler lifestyle, much more quiet... seems like the opposite of a life in any large city, alas you will unlikely every be on 100k
skeeter2020 4y ago
> I envy these people. You envy people who have absolutely nothing to live for? No job, charity, religion, community, children, no hopes, no dreams? These are not people who said "NO!" to the 9-5 rat race and are doing their own thing; they literally do nothing. For me this is the saddest existence I could imagine, a fate worse than death.
- chasd00 4y ago
  yeah it's like negative life. You are effectively dead but continue to be a cost center to others around you. ...as if you rented your grave and stuck your neighbors/family/partner with the lease.

by kubb 4y ago

HideousKojima 4y ago

>You have one life, if you don't wan't to live it as a forced laborer, why should you? Why would you? Because until recently in history, the choices for most humans was work or starve. And nowadays the choice is work or take advantage of the generosity of others. And note that said "generosity" is usually collected under threat of violence via taxation. So if you feel morally ok taking advantage of those who actually do work, you do you. Just don't be surprised when those who do work resent and despise you.

kubb 4y ago
When I hear this sentiment I'm always completely baffled, because it sounds like the person expressing it lives in some other world than I do. No country that I know of allows you to collect unemployment benefits forever. You get maybe 1-2 years to find a new job, and after that they leave you on your own. This usually means homelessness. As a homeless person, you might get some food, but many starve and freeze. By no means is that a secure existence.
- luckylion 4y ago
  You're not aware that most of Europe exists? What?
  - kubb 4y ago
    No country in Europe that I know of will give you unemployment benefits forever. There are 44 countries here, please back up your claim and name 10 where you can live without working indefinitely. Otherwise, I'm going to have to assume that you're making stuff up.
    - HideousKojima 4y ago
      There are other welfare benefits besides unemployment, even in the US. If you qualify for food stamps, medicaid, and section 8 housing you can live without starving or freezing to death, no unemployment benefits needed. I'm sure that comparable types of benefits exist in Europe.
    - luckylion 4y ago
      Is this a joke, or is it some "you don't get unemployment benefits until the end of time, after some months/years you get welfare/social security/some other name" thing? Most European countries have significant percentages of unemployment, and very few people end up on the streets (and starvation is essentially unheard of), that alone should give you a hint that you've missed something in your reading on the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state has an introduction and also contains various links to individual state's current setup. Germany is currently in the process of increasing welfare (Bürgergeld, literally "citizen money") to something like 60% of average post-tax income.
      - kubb 4y ago
        https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bürgergeld https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bürgergeld "Der Regelsatz des neuen Bürgergelds für alleinstehende Erwachsene soll monatlich 502 Euro betragen (von bisher 449 Euro)." Bürgergeld is increasing Arbeitslosengeld 2 aka Harz VI. They want to increase it from 449 to 502 euro per month. https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/arbeitslosengeld-2/auszahlung-dauer https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/arbeitslosengeld-2/auszahlung-... "Arbeitslosengeld II bekommen Sie normalerweise für 12 Monate". You usually get it for 12 months. It sounds like you're having a cognitive dissonance where your idea of what's happening in Germany doesn't match reality. That might explain why you think my post is a joke.
- lostmsu 4y ago
  I don't think you are really informed on the matter thought. "maybe 1-2 years" here sounds like an educated guess, and the whole point of the article is that that guess is wrong at least in the US.
waboremo 4y ago
The choice for most humans wasn't "work or starve". Back then the concept of "work" didn't exist. You lived your life, you hunted and farmed for nourishment, these tasks while laborous were also incredibly fulfilling. There were no abstract timelines to complete tasks by, you collected eggs because they had to be collected and you harvested crops because your family needs food. Nowadays the choice is "do meaningless tasks to make someone else much wealthier, or cease to exist with the social institutions created explicitly to exploit the lower classes". Why are you morally OK with forcing people into this system of exploitation?
- luckylion 4y ago
  > these tasks while laborous were also incredibly fulfilling This is just romanticizing the past to make it look like a children's book.
  - waboremo 4y ago
    I did not claim we should go back to farm life or that it was perfect, only that these tasks were fulfilling. Are your tasks at work not fulfilling? Perhaps another hour long meeting will give you the same joy as turning your harvested crops into a simple cake. Protip: you will struggle to find any book of the past that brings up their daily routine tasks for sustenance as a major source of agony in the same way we do about our modern office jobs. There is a reason for this and I hope you figure it out soon.

pelagicAustral 4y ago

You should come work to the Falkland Islands... You can strike quite a nice balance if you can cope with less money and moderate isolation.

kubb 4y ago
Huh, what is it about that place that makes it possible?
- pelagicAustral 4y ago
  Well, it's a small place. You hardly spend any time commuting. Work hours are 0800-1630 with an hour lunch which leaves you with plenty of time to do other activities. Work culture is quite relaxed, no rushing as long as projects get done. Internet is decent enough that you can work remotely, if thats your thing. 1,5 hour flight to the continent. Downside is that software engineering is not really a thing, so you really need to make an effort to get a job, but once you're in you will have no serious concerns like those you mention... additionally there is a lot of potential for meaningful work, or plenty of avenues to help the community with your talent. It's not perfect,not at all... but it's a much simpler lifestyle, much more quiet... seems like the opposite of a life in any large city, alas you will unlikely every be on 100k

skeeter2020 4y ago

> I envy these people. You envy people who have absolutely nothing to live for? No job, charity, religion, community, children, no hopes, no dreams? These are not people who said "NO!" to the 9-5 rat race and are doing their own thing; they literally do nothing. For me this is the saddest existence I could imagine, a fate worse than death.

chasd00 4y ago
yeah it's like negative life. You are effectively dead but continue to be a cost center to others around you. ...as if you rented your grave and stuck your neighbors/family/partner with the lease.