3 ms·

Good discussion on UBI, I used to be a big proponent of it, but after the pandemic I agree that it's not a cure all, and definitely will cause a lot of people t

Good discussion on UBI, I used to be a big proponent of it, but after the pandemic I agree that it's not a cure all, and definitely will cause a lot of people to fall further down a vice trap, encouraging others to join them. With that said, UBI is very much a fringe policy prescription, and Andrew Yang was pretty much kicked out of the Democratic party. He offers no prescriptions as far as I can tell other than an organic great awakening arriving, in other words a collective delusion convincing everyone to work and work hard. Something has to give with housing I think. The ramifications of policy there would impact trillions of dollars in wealth and any debates would be sluggish and full of inertia.

HDThoreaun 4y ago
EITC makes so much more sense than UBI. If I’ve learned anything it’s that incentives matter and UBI creates all the wrong ones.
brightball 4y ago
The fun thing about this economic situation is that it would normally work itself out. Money runs out or runs low for government benefits, the benefits paid go down and people go back to work. The problem self resolves due to the money supply. Now, instead the same thing happens but we print more money, causing inflation. Cost of goods goes up. People need more money to survive and the cost of labor goes up…which further drives up the cost of goods. But the way our government benefits work, if you go back to work you lose them in many cases. The inflation cycle is dangerous and it only happens because once you vote in dependency programs you can never vote them out. It’s made worse because of the benefit cliffs that make people want to stay below certain income lines to avoid losing the benefits that come with it. It’s a situation born entirely from far too much government intervention.
hinkley 4y ago
I just started rewatching The Expanse and I had forgotten about the amount of casual nationalism (racism but by planet) is in the first season. This is making me feel things post-pandemic that I didn’t feel so strongly before. The Belters see Earthers as the head of the snake. The Martians jeer at them for being listless, directionless planet destroyers on the dole. The thing is that there may be a solution for UBI that also reduces the planet destroyer aspect, and that’s to claw back mineral rights and charge companies for their extraction. From land, from water, or just to burn the air. This treats the Physical wealth of the US as something owned by her citizens, who are entitled to recompense for the consequences of exploitation. It’s not without its flaws, because getting paid more tends to make people want to say yes, but right now there isn’t even a question you own the rights you can do whatever you want and skip to the bank feeling safe about externalization of the risks. The government is your personal janitor.
- fullshark 4y ago
  That's basically what Alaska does right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund
jerf 4y ago
> "definitely will cause a lot of people to fall further down a vice trap", "UBI is very much a fringe policy prescription" Unfortunately, I think these two things are working against each other. Regardless of the hypothetical virtues of UBI, I am increasingly certain that our political powers that be see it as a primo-grade mechanism for creating dependence, and they like dependent people. They do as they are told. I expect UBI to rapidly leave "fringe" status in the relatively near future for precisely this reason. I think anyone reading my little post here who fancies themselves a UBI advocate should take some time to do a red-team attack on a society using UBI and consider the possible outcomes with the real politicians we have, rather than hypothetical ones. However wonderful a well-administered UBI run by caring, selfless politicians may be, the more I think about it the more it's handing the keys to eagerly-worn iron collars to our political class.

HDThoreaun 4y ago

EITC makes so much more sense than UBI. If I’ve learned anything it’s that incentives matter and UBI creates all the wrong ones.

brightball 4y ago

The fun thing about this economic situation is that it would normally work itself out. Money runs out or runs low for government benefits, the benefits paid go down and people go back to work. The problem self resolves due to the money supply. Now, instead the same thing happens but we print more money, causing inflation. Cost of goods goes up. People need more money to survive and the cost of labor goes up…which further drives up the cost of goods. But the way our government benefits work, if you go back to work you lose them in many cases. The inflation cycle is dangerous and it only happens because once you vote in dependency programs you can never vote them out. It’s made worse because of the benefit cliffs that make people want to stay below certain income lines to avoid losing the benefits that come with it. It’s a situation born entirely from far too much government intervention.

hinkley 4y ago

I just started rewatching The Expanse and I had forgotten about the amount of casual nationalism (racism but by planet) is in the first season. This is making me feel things post-pandemic that I didn’t feel so strongly before. The Belters see Earthers as the head of the snake. The Martians jeer at them for being listless, directionless planet destroyers on the dole. The thing is that there may be a solution for UBI that also reduces the planet destroyer aspect, and that’s to claw back mineral rights and charge companies for their extraction. From land, from water, or just to burn the air. This treats the Physical wealth of the US as something owned by her citizens, who are entitled to recompense for the consequences of exploitation. It’s not without its flaws, because getting paid more tends to make people want to say yes, but right now there isn’t even a question you own the rights you can do whatever you want and skip to the bank feeling safe about externalization of the risks. The government is your personal janitor.

fullshark 4y ago
That's basically what Alaska does right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund

jerf 4y ago

> "definitely will cause a lot of people to fall further down a vice trap", "UBI is very much a fringe policy prescription" Unfortunately, I think these two things are working against each other. Regardless of the hypothetical virtues of UBI, I am increasingly certain that our political powers that be see it as a primo-grade mechanism for creating dependence, and they like dependent people. They do as they are told. I expect UBI to rapidly leave "fringe" status in the relatively near future for precisely this reason. I think anyone reading my little post here who fancies themselves a UBI advocate should take some time to do a red-team attack on a society using UBI and consider the possible outcomes with the real politicians we have, rather than hypothetical ones. However wonderful a well-administered UBI run by caring, selfless politicians may be, the more I think about it the more it's handing the keys to eagerly-worn iron collars to our political class.