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On their computers they have never prevented it before, sorry if the previous comment was unclear about that we were talking about computers/laptops, not mobile

On their computers they have never prevented it before, sorry if the previous comment was unclear about that we were talking about computers/laptops, not mobile devices.

dijit 4y ago
But they also never went to great lengths to allow it, culminating in a terrible experience with the T2 chip: https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/apple-t2-chip-linux-mac-problems-3616180 https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/apple-t2-chip-linux-mac-... So, again, it was not looking positive.
- capableweb 4y ago
  That was never the case, seems the article you linked is based on a misunderstanding. See https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/11/apple-t2-chip-cant-boot-linux https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/11/apple-t2-chip-cant-boot-... Even with the T2 chip, it was possible to turn off Secure Boot 100% so you could boot whatever operating system you wanted. Just as a disclaimer, I'm no Apple fanboy, I stopped using their software/OS even before I got rid of my last MacBook, and since 2018 or something haven't been using the hardware neither and only use a Mac for testing various software I develop. So I don't normally defend anything they are doing. But right should be right; they have never previously tried to stop people from running whatever OS they want on their computer hardware so guessing they suddenly would start, feels like a pretty far-out guess.
  - dijit 4y ago
    I tried to do this myself, I was greeted with a fan that was on 100%, a non-functioning keyboard and trackpad and USB ports that were roughly half functional. It's a falsehood to say it was allowed. It was possible but very much not how you seem to imply.
    - capableweb 4y ago
      That sounds like the kernel/distro you were using didn't quite support the hardware you were trying to use, rather than a problem of a company trying to prevent you from booting a OS on said device.
      - dijit 4y ago
        I never claimed they were trying to keep us of, more that they didn't care at all, the T2 chip was a major change and basically didn't function like anything that existed. The reason I said it was a "worrisome trend" is because with the switch to M1: Apple would need to intentionally leave in a back-door if people had a chance of booting alternative operating systems. Since they had not shown any interest in supporting alternative operating systems (outside of Bootcamp, which we knew was going away too) then it could be reasonably assumed that they would do no extra work to allow alternative operating systems at all. Since it was extra work, and since they had not shown any care before.
    - galad87 4y ago
      That was because of missing drivers, or drivers that needed to be modified a bit (like the nvme driver), it had nothing to do with a locked down boot loader.
      - dijit 4y ago
        Not sure where you got that I said it was a boot loader problem. I’m not sure if you’re deliberately missing the point either. The point was that the trend seemed to be locked down devices more and more, not that it was impossible before; just that it was getting more and more difficult- and that it was already difficult on arm platforms.
        nemothekid 4y ago
        If your keyboard and trackpad is non-functional that means you are missing drivers. Apple is not preventing you from dual booting, but Apple is also not going to write drivers for their trackpad for linux. Apple is not locking the system down, but they are saying if you want it to work on Linux, write the drivers yourself. This is exactly what is happening with Asahi linux. The ARM bootloader to install Linux, but they aren't helping the Asahi linux developers write a GPU driver. They are not locking the platform down, they are simply saying you can do what you want, but don't expect any help from us.
Wowfunhappy 4y ago
> On their computers they have never prevented it before "What's a computer?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S5BLs51yDQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S5BLs51yDQ I really don't know what to call iOS devices other than computers. Unless one of your requirements for "computer" is "ability to boot third party OSs"; I don't entirely disagree with that but it's a bit circulatory in this context.
- capableweb 4y ago
  iPhone is a phone, iPad is a tablet, Mac are computers. This is generally what people understand when you talk about the different product segment Apple divides their products in. I'd probably call of them "computing devices", but I think in general it is pretty clear what I'm referring to when I say "Apple's computers", at least to people outside of Hacker News. I think pretty much 0% of the people I spend time with AFK would think "Ah, he must be talking about the iPhone" if I said something like that.
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    Anecdote: I teach coding to children, including occasional private lessons in client homes. For the latter, families need to supply computers, which one client didn't realize. I managed on the first day by having the two girls pass my personal laptop back and fourth, but I made it clear they'd need to each bring a computer next week. So I was a bit surprised the following week when one of them showed up with an iPad! But, it had that attachable keyboard and trackpad Apple sells, and it really did work fine in the web-based environments we use. Broadly speaking, I agree that most people think of Macs as computers and iPads as iPads, but I don't think that distinction is meaningful. Macs and iPads are marketed for most of the same things, and Apple has even begun touting how they have the same chips inside!
- smoldesu 4y ago
  An iPhone is a computer. An iPad is a computer. A Macbook is a computer. Any questions?
supreme_berry 4y ago

On their computers they have never prevented it before, sorry if the previous comment was unclear about that we were talking about computers/laptops, not mobile devices.

dijit 4y ago

But they also never went to great lengths to allow it, culminating in a terrible experience with the T2 chip: https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/apple-t2-chip-linux-mac-problems-3616180 https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/apple-t2-chip-linux-mac-... So, again, it was not looking positive.

capableweb 4y ago
That was never the case, seems the article you linked is based on a misunderstanding. See https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/11/apple-t2-chip-cant-boot-linux https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/11/apple-t2-chip-cant-boot-... Even with the T2 chip, it was possible to turn off Secure Boot 100% so you could boot whatever operating system you wanted. Just as a disclaimer, I'm no Apple fanboy, I stopped using their software/OS even before I got rid of my last MacBook, and since 2018 or something haven't been using the hardware neither and only use a Mac for testing various software I develop. So I don't normally defend anything they are doing. But right should be right; they have never previously tried to stop people from running whatever OS they want on their computer hardware so guessing they suddenly would start, feels like a pretty far-out guess.
- dijit 4y ago
  I tried to do this myself, I was greeted with a fan that was on 100%, a non-functioning keyboard and trackpad and USB ports that were roughly half functional. It's a falsehood to say it was allowed. It was possible but very much not how you seem to imply.
  - capableweb 4y ago
    That sounds like the kernel/distro you were using didn't quite support the hardware you were trying to use, rather than a problem of a company trying to prevent you from booting a OS on said device.
    - dijit 4y ago
      I never claimed they were trying to keep us of, more that they didn't care at all, the T2 chip was a major change and basically didn't function like anything that existed. The reason I said it was a "worrisome trend" is because with the switch to M1: Apple would need to intentionally leave in a back-door if people had a chance of booting alternative operating systems. Since they had not shown any interest in supporting alternative operating systems (outside of Bootcamp, which we knew was going away too) then it could be reasonably assumed that they would do no extra work to allow alternative operating systems at all. Since it was extra work, and since they had not shown any care before.
  - galad87 4y ago
    That was because of missing drivers, or drivers that needed to be modified a bit (like the nvme driver), it had nothing to do with a locked down boot loader.
    - dijit 4y ago
      Not sure where you got that I said it was a boot loader problem. I’m not sure if you’re deliberately missing the point either. The point was that the trend seemed to be locked down devices more and more, not that it was impossible before; just that it was getting more and more difficult- and that it was already difficult on arm platforms.
      - nemothekid 4y ago
        If your keyboard and trackpad is non-functional that means you are missing drivers. Apple is not preventing you from dual booting, but Apple is also not going to write drivers for their trackpad for linux. Apple is not locking the system down, but they are saying if you want it to work on Linux, write the drivers yourself. This is exactly what is happening with Asahi linux. The ARM bootloader to install Linux, but they aren't helping the Asahi linux developers write a GPU driver. They are not locking the platform down, they are simply saying you can do what you want, but don't expect any help from us.

Wowfunhappy 4y ago

> On their computers they have never prevented it before "What's a computer?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S5BLs51yDQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S5BLs51yDQ I really don't know what to call iOS devices other than computers. Unless one of your requirements for "computer" is "ability to boot third party OSs"; I don't entirely disagree with that but it's a bit circulatory in this context.

capableweb 4y ago
iPhone is a phone, iPad is a tablet, Mac are computers. This is generally what people understand when you talk about the different product segment Apple divides their products in. I'd probably call of them "computing devices", but I think in general it is pretty clear what I'm referring to when I say "Apple's computers", at least to people outside of Hacker News. I think pretty much 0% of the people I spend time with AFK would think "Ah, he must be talking about the iPhone" if I said something like that.
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  Anecdote: I teach coding to children, including occasional private lessons in client homes. For the latter, families need to supply computers, which one client didn't realize. I managed on the first day by having the two girls pass my personal laptop back and fourth, but I made it clear they'd need to each bring a computer next week. So I was a bit surprised the following week when one of them showed up with an iPad! But, it had that attachable keyboard and trackpad Apple sells, and it really did work fine in the web-based environments we use. Broadly speaking, I agree that most people think of Macs as computers and iPads as iPads, but I don't think that distinction is meaningful. Macs and iPads are marketed for most of the same things, and Apple has even begun touting how they have the same chips inside!
smoldesu 4y ago
An iPhone is a computer. An iPad is a computer. A Macbook is a computer. Any questions?

supreme_berry 4y ago