13 ms·

Wow. The effort here is amazing—sad Apple won’t provide for more assistance. If it wasn’t for this project, OpenBSD on Apple silicon (thank you kettenis@!) li

by binkHN 4y ago

Wow. The effort here is amazing—sad Apple won’t provide for more assistance. If it wasn’t for this project, OpenBSD on Apple silicon (thank you kettenis@!) likely wouldn’t exist.

rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 4y ago
Apple already provided way more than anyone expected(making it very easy to dual boot).
- capableweb 4y ago
  Did people really expect Apple to prevent dual booting? Not only have they never prevented it before, but also they would for sure be getting into hot water legally if they start selling computers where there wasn't the possibility.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - dijit 4y ago
    > Did people really expect Apple to prevent dual booting? Yes, iPhones and iPad's don't allow it and Microsoft doesn't allow it on it's ARM based OS. (enforced secureboot; detailed slightly here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/SurfaceRT#Secure_Boot https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/SurfaceRT#Secure_Boot ) There was no expectation on my side that they would support it.
    - capableweb 4y ago
      On their computers they have never prevented it before, sorry if the previous comment was unclear about that we were talking about computers/laptops, not mobile devices.
      - dijit 4y ago
        But they also never went to great lengths to allow it, culminating in a terrible experience with the T2 chip: https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/apple-t2-chip-linux-mac-problems-3616180 https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/apple-t2-chip-linux-mac-... So, again, it was not looking positive.
        capableweb 4y ago
        That was never the case, seems the article you linked is based on a misunderstanding. See https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/11/apple-t2-chip-cant-boot-linux https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/11/apple-t2-chip-cant-boot-... Even with the T2 chip, it was possible to turn off Secure Boot 100% so you could boot whatever operating system you wanted. Just as a disclaimer, I'm no Apple fanboy, I stopped using their software/OS even before I got rid of my last MacBook, and since 2018 or something haven't been using the hardware neither and only use a Mac for testing various software I develop. So I don't normally defend anything they are doing. But right should be right; they have never previously tried to stop people from running whatever OS they want on their computer hardware so guessing they suddenly would start, feels like a pretty far-out guess.
        dijit 4y ago
        I tried to do this myself, I was greeted with a fan that was on 100%, a non-functioning keyboard and trackpad and USB ports that were roughly half functional. It's a falsehood to say it was allowed. It was possible but very much not how you seem to imply.
        capableweb 4y ago
        That sounds like the kernel/distro you were using didn't quite support the hardware you were trying to use, rather than a problem of a company trying to prevent you from booting a OS on said device.
        dijit 4y ago
    - Vogtinator 4y ago
      AFAIK the enforced SB without allowing "3rd-party" keys is specific to (32bit ARM!) RT devices, which are obsolete. The current line of "Windows on Arm" devices (various Laptops and their "Volterra" dev kit) allow turning off secure boot.
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    Leading up to and for a short time after the M-series announcement, the resulting "locking down" of the Mac was a commonly voiced suspicion/concern, to the point that to this day, many tech-adjacent online discussion participants who don't follow Apple think that M-series Macs have the same boot restrictions as iOS devices.
Wowfunhappy 4y ago
I have to say, I don't entirely understand Apple's approach here. Apple spent significant engineering effort modifying their iOS bootloader to support third-party OSs—then neglected to tell anyone how to actually make a third-party OS. Whoops! Have fun! And to be clear, this is absolutely preferable to Apple selling fully locked-down Macs. And, I realize that macOS will always be Apple's first priority, and that writing documentation takes effort. But would it really kill Apple to connect Marcan to an engineer, who could allocate 30 minutes a week to answering questions? Is there some sort of legal liability involved? Security concerns? Brand safety? The Asahi team is comprised of people who clearly enjoy reverse-engineering, and if everyone is having fun (and creating an awesome Linux port in the process), perhaps that's all that matters. But I still find Apple's choices confusing.
- capableweb 4y ago
  > Apple spent significant engineering effort modifying their iOS bootloader to support for third-party OSs—then neglected to tell anyone how to actually make a third-party OS. Whoops! Have fun! This tend to be the usual practice for much of what Apple does, release things with minimal documentation and let others figure out how it works. Maybe it's just a sadist corporation who wants to see how far people are willing to go in order to get stuff working with their own hardware/software? Sometimes it certainly seems that way.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    It's mostly frustrating that this is still the rhetoric from Apple now that they are the largest company in modern existence. They have the faculties to release their Unix drivers and even provide world-class Linux support while still profiting heavily from their hardware sales. Yet, they don't. Every time they're given an opportunity to err on the side of freedom or choice, they shrug. This is an ongoing problem that has prevented me from daily-driving MacOS since Catalina. Really a stance I wish Apple would revert, even Microsoft does a better job here than Apple.
    - tpush 4y ago
jjtheblunt 4y ago
> sad Apple won't provide for more assistance I am missing why we think they are not doing so continuously, perhaps behind the scenes
- mhh__ 4y ago
  Apple really don't go in for that kind of thing. Spiritually it's your device but their ego
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  I really don't think marcan and co have some secret backchannel with Apple. If nothing else, a lot of their coding sessions are streamed live on Youtube, so you can see them reverse engineering stuff in real time.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by binkHN 4y ago

Wow. The effort here is amazing—sad Apple won’t provide for more assistance. If it wasn’t for this project, OpenBSD on Apple silicon (thank you kettenis@!) likely wouldn’t exist.

rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 4y ago

Apple already provided way more than anyone expected(making it very easy to dual boot).

capableweb 4y ago
Did people really expect Apple to prevent dual booting? Not only have they never prevented it before, but also they would for sure be getting into hot water legally if they start selling computers where there wasn't the possibility.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dijit 4y ago
  > Did people really expect Apple to prevent dual booting? Yes, iPhones and iPad's don't allow it and Microsoft doesn't allow it on it's ARM based OS. (enforced secureboot; detailed slightly here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/SurfaceRT#Secure_Boot https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/SurfaceRT#Secure_Boot ) There was no expectation on my side that they would support it.
  - capableweb 4y ago
    On their computers they have never prevented it before, sorry if the previous comment was unclear about that we were talking about computers/laptops, not mobile devices.
    - dijit 4y ago
      But they also never went to great lengths to allow it, culminating in a terrible experience with the T2 chip: https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/apple-t2-chip-linux-mac-problems-3616180 https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/apple-t2-chip-linux-mac-... So, again, it was not looking positive.
      - capableweb 4y ago
        That was never the case, seems the article you linked is based on a misunderstanding. See https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/11/apple-t2-chip-cant-boot-linux https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/11/apple-t2-chip-cant-boot-... Even with the T2 chip, it was possible to turn off Secure Boot 100% so you could boot whatever operating system you wanted. Just as a disclaimer, I'm no Apple fanboy, I stopped using their software/OS even before I got rid of my last MacBook, and since 2018 or something haven't been using the hardware neither and only use a Mac for testing various software I develop. So I don't normally defend anything they are doing. But right should be right; they have never previously tried to stop people from running whatever OS they want on their computer hardware so guessing they suddenly would start, feels like a pretty far-out guess.
        dijit 4y ago
        I tried to do this myself, I was greeted with a fan that was on 100%, a non-functioning keyboard and trackpad and USB ports that were roughly half functional. It's a falsehood to say it was allowed. It was possible but very much not how you seem to imply.
        capableweb 4y ago
        That sounds like the kernel/distro you were using didn't quite support the hardware you were trying to use, rather than a problem of a company trying to prevent you from booting a OS on said device.
        dijit 4y ago
  - Vogtinator 4y ago
    AFAIK the enforced SB without allowing "3rd-party" keys is specific to (32bit ARM!) RT devices, which are obsolete. The current line of "Windows on Arm" devices (various Laptops and their "Volterra" dev kit) allow turning off secure boot.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  Leading up to and for a short time after the M-series announcement, the resulting "locking down" of the Mac was a commonly voiced suspicion/concern, to the point that to this day, many tech-adjacent online discussion participants who don't follow Apple think that M-series Macs have the same boot restrictions as iOS devices.

Wowfunhappy 4y ago

I have to say, I don't entirely understand Apple's approach here. Apple spent significant engineering effort modifying their iOS bootloader to support third-party OSs—then neglected to tell anyone how to actually make a third-party OS. Whoops! Have fun! And to be clear, this is absolutely preferable to Apple selling fully locked-down Macs. And, I realize that macOS will always be Apple's first priority, and that writing documentation takes effort. But would it really kill Apple to connect Marcan to an engineer, who could allocate 30 minutes a week to answering questions? Is there some sort of legal liability involved? Security concerns? Brand safety? The Asahi team is comprised of people who clearly enjoy reverse-engineering, and if everyone is having fun (and creating an awesome Linux port in the process), perhaps that's all that matters. But I still find Apple's choices confusing.

capableweb 4y ago
> Apple spent significant engineering effort modifying their iOS bootloader to support for third-party OSs—then neglected to tell anyone how to actually make a third-party OS. Whoops! Have fun! This tend to be the usual practice for much of what Apple does, release things with minimal documentation and let others figure out how it works. Maybe it's just a sadist corporation who wants to see how far people are willing to go in order to get stuff working with their own hardware/software? Sometimes it certainly seems that way.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  It's mostly frustrating that this is still the rhetoric from Apple now that they are the largest company in modern existence. They have the faculties to release their Unix drivers and even provide world-class Linux support while still profiting heavily from their hardware sales. Yet, they don't. Every time they're given an opportunity to err on the side of freedom or choice, they shrug. This is an ongoing problem that has prevented me from daily-driving MacOS since Catalina. Really a stance I wish Apple would revert, even Microsoft does a better job here than Apple.
  - tpush 4y ago

jjtheblunt 4y ago

> sad Apple won't provide for more assistance I am missing why we think they are not doing so continuously, perhaps behind the scenes

mhh__ 4y ago
Apple really don't go in for that kind of thing. Spiritually it's your device but their ego
Wowfunhappy 4y ago
I really don't think marcan and co have some secret backchannel with Apple. If nothing else, a lot of their coding sessions are streamed live on Youtube, so you can see them reverse engineering stuff in real time.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]