5 ms·

I could be wrong but I don't think hydro has a low enough spin-up time to be useful as a peaker plant.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
Hydro ramp is very quick, only limited by the delay in mechanical inertia of the turbine and generator rotors. Most dams can be at peak output in ~10 seconds. With that said, these particular generators can be replaced with renewables and batteries trivially (and the costs are even more reasonable with the recent passing of the inflation reduction act) due to their smallish capacity (~200 acres of land for 20MW solar, small footprint for the storage system).
- BurningFrog 4y ago
  > these particular generators can be replaced with renewables and batteries trivially Renewables and batteries can be added trivially. I don't see how that means the dams should be torn down.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Because they’re detrimental to the biome in this case. Every evaluation will be different, each with nuance. EDIT: I think, importantly, that these decisions should require the replacement of generation capacity lost with clean generation and storage as part of the cost benefit analysis.
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      That may not even be necessary. This demolition happened in Oregon. Despite a growing population and increasingly hot summers, Oregon’s electricity use peaked in 2000. https://www.oregon.gov/energy/energy-oregon/Pages/How-Oregon-Uses-Energy.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/energy/energy-oregon/Pages/How-Oregon... US energy demand has been plateauing for a while as well: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=38572 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=38572
      - Retric 4y ago
        EV’s are likely to offset that long term trend. However, electricity is very low on the utility provided by dams. Reducing flooding and stabilizing the water supply tend to be vastly more valuable in most areas.
        londons_explore 4y ago
        EV's and heat pumps for building heating. Both are 'the future', and both will rather dramatically increase power grid demand. Luckily, I think 'smart' pricing and demand scheduling will mean that the infrastructure changes will be minimal and gradual despite the massively increased demand - there won't be rolling blackouts or emergencies anytime soon.
        bobthepanda 4y ago
        At least in WA (OR may be different but as PNW neighbors we are often pretty similar) a lot of heating locally is electric resistance, so heat pumps would actually represent a net decrease in energy use.
    - BurningFrog 4y ago
      > Because they’re detrimental to the biome in this case That's a good reason. My point is/was that that is unrelated to renewables and batteries.
  - pencilguin 4y ago
    The value extracted from the dams was never more than a tiny fraction of just the commercial value of the fishery each eliminated, wholly leaving aside the matter of causing extinctions. California's system with dams near peaks of the Sierra Nevada range, feeding penstocks to thousands of meters below, is both massively more efficient and causes nowhere near the ecological damage of the river valley dams being torn down. Those were largely built in the 1920s with pulley-operated (pre-hydraulics) equipment trailered up on abysmally bad roads... that still exist, unimproved.
heavenlyblue 4y ago
I do not understand, what is quicker to spin up than a hydro power plant? Surely it's slower to heat up coal to the burning temperature than just opening the tap with water.
- LeifCarrotson 4y ago
  Natural gas turbines are quicker to spin up than a hydro turbine.
  - poooogles 4y ago
    That's not correct. Siemens energy turbines list the start up time as 10 minutes [1]. Pumped storage takes in the realm of 20 seconds [2]. 1. https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/offerings/services/performance-enhancement/modernization-upgrades/gas-turbines/sgo-sgt-4000f.html https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/offerings/services/... 2. https://www.power-technology.com/analysis/featuredinorwig-a-unique-power-plant-in-the-north-of-wales-5773187/ https://www.power-technology.com/analysis/featuredinorwig-a-...
- elihu 4y ago
  Batteries are effectively instantaneous. Hydro is slower than that, but compared to most other things it's very fast.
wongarsu 4y ago
Pumped hydro is the textbook example of a fast peaker plant, with startup times measured in seconds, as opposed to the minutes of gas and hours of coal plants. You usually roughly follow the demand curve with hydro, coal and nuclear, fill in the gaps of their reaction time with gas (though preferably keeping the gas plant above their minimum load of ~40% during the day), and fill in the gaps of that mix with pumped hydro. Now if you want to there's no real reason you can't outfit a dam like a pumped hydro plant instead of the setup of a baseload plant. After all pumped hydro is just a reservoir you refill manually when electricity is cheap.

Hydro ramp is very quick, only limited by the delay in mechanical inertia of the turbine and generator rotors. Most dams can be at peak output in ~10 seconds. With that said, these particular generators can be replaced with renewables and batteries trivially (and the costs are even more reasonable with the recent passing of the inflation reduction act) due to their smallish capacity (~200 acres of land for 20MW solar, small footprint for the storage system).

BurningFrog 4y ago
> these particular generators can be replaced with renewables and batteries trivially Renewables and batteries can be added trivially. I don't see how that means the dams should be torn down.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Because they’re detrimental to the biome in this case. Every evaluation will be different, each with nuance. EDIT: I think, importantly, that these decisions should require the replacement of generation capacity lost with clean generation and storage as part of the cost benefit analysis.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    That may not even be necessary. This demolition happened in Oregon. Despite a growing population and increasingly hot summers, Oregon’s electricity use peaked in 2000. https://www.oregon.gov/energy/energy-oregon/Pages/How-Oregon-Uses-Energy.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/energy/energy-oregon/Pages/How-Oregon... US energy demand has been plateauing for a while as well: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=38572 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=38572
    - Retric 4y ago
      EV’s are likely to offset that long term trend. However, electricity is very low on the utility provided by dams. Reducing flooding and stabilizing the water supply tend to be vastly more valuable in most areas.
      - londons_explore 4y ago
        EV's and heat pumps for building heating. Both are 'the future', and both will rather dramatically increase power grid demand. Luckily, I think 'smart' pricing and demand scheduling will mean that the infrastructure changes will be minimal and gradual despite the massively increased demand - there won't be rolling blackouts or emergencies anytime soon.
        bobthepanda 4y ago
        At least in WA (OR may be different but as PNW neighbors we are often pretty similar) a lot of heating locally is electric resistance, so heat pumps would actually represent a net decrease in energy use.
  - BurningFrog 4y ago
    > Because they’re detrimental to the biome in this case That's a good reason. My point is/was that that is unrelated to renewables and batteries.
- pencilguin 4y ago
  The value extracted from the dams was never more than a tiny fraction of just the commercial value of the fishery each eliminated, wholly leaving aside the matter of causing extinctions. California's system with dams near peaks of the Sierra Nevada range, feeding penstocks to thousands of meters below, is both massively more efficient and causes nowhere near the ecological damage of the river valley dams being torn down. Those were largely built in the 1920s with pulley-operated (pre-hydraulics) equipment trailered up on abysmally bad roads... that still exist, unimproved.

heavenlyblue 4y ago

I do not understand, what is quicker to spin up than a hydro power plant? Surely it's slower to heat up coal to the burning temperature than just opening the tap with water.

LeifCarrotson 4y ago
Natural gas turbines are quicker to spin up than a hydro turbine.
- poooogles 4y ago
  That's not correct. Siemens energy turbines list the start up time as 10 minutes [1]. Pumped storage takes in the realm of 20 seconds [2]. 1. https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/offerings/services/performance-enhancement/modernization-upgrades/gas-turbines/sgo-sgt-4000f.html https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/offerings/services/... 2. https://www.power-technology.com/analysis/featuredinorwig-a-unique-power-plant-in-the-north-of-wales-5773187/ https://www.power-technology.com/analysis/featuredinorwig-a-...
elihu 4y ago
Batteries are effectively instantaneous. Hydro is slower than that, but compared to most other things it's very fast.

wongarsu 4y ago

Pumped hydro is the textbook example of a fast peaker plant, with startup times measured in seconds, as opposed to the minutes of gas and hours of coal plants. You usually roughly follow the demand curve with hydro, coal and nuclear, fill in the gaps of their reaction time with gas (though preferably keeping the gas plant above their minimum load of ~40% during the day), and fill in the gaps of that mix with pumped hydro. Now if you want to there's no real reason you can't outfit a dam like a pumped hydro plant instead of the setup of a baseload plant. After all pumped hydro is just a reservoir you refill manually when electricity is cheap.