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I disagree. I may have used hyperbole, but those were then reasons listed: my family wants me in the religion, my social graph is based around the religion and

I disagree. I may have used hyperbole, but those were then reasons listed: my family wants me in the religion, my social graph is based around the religion and its rituals, my emotional support comes from the religion. That’s cult-like. I think the main reason we don’t considered religions a cult has nothing to do with the behavior or the participants or their reasons for attendance. We generally consider cults to be small, which is incongruous with mainstream religion.

compiler-guy 4y ago
You missed “the donuts are good” reason. And the detail about varying levels of belief. Emotional support from a caring ear is hardly cult like. “I have friends there” is hardly cult like. On the social graph side, say I used to be really into some charity work, say, like a homeless shelter. I sat on the board and volunteered there for years and years and met many people who became friends. Our kids grew up together and we went to their birthday parties and all that. I have since become disenchanted with the way things are run—the new director and I don’t see eye to eye—plus I have found other ways to help out this demographic. But I would probably still hang out there, or at least go to the big events, simply because I have friends there and people that I genuinely like. I’m sorry, but that’s not culty. Your hyperbole works well as a rhetorical strategy, but eliminates all the nuance I was trying to add. Just like as if I had said, “an occasional cookie doesn’t make one fat” and you had replied, “Chowing down on cookies and ice cream actually does make you fat”. It might be true, but it is not responsive to the argument. As I write this I’m en route to a family gathering that excites me not at all, but it will make certain members of my family happy. That’s not cult like, it’s making compromises to get along in the world.
- halpmeh 4y ago
  So organized religions are not cults because some people just show up for the donuts? You're only trying to add "nuance" because you're intimately familiar with organized religion. When you look at other cults, you say to yourself "obviously that's a cult because they're all zealots." But is that likely to be true? Probably not. Humans always have a wide variety of motivations for the things they do. I'm sure many people have joined cults because they're lonely or hungry. As for your example with the homeless shelter, it would be a cult if you and the other members were part of the homeless shelter based off of a shared philosophy that was given to you from birth that involved practicing arcane rituals worshiping an ancient deity.
  - compiler-guy 4y ago
    The donuts example is that some people go not for any shared belief, but for a material benefit that cynically uses the group’s goodwill. But your choice of sarcasm and “boy isn’t this ridiculous” rhetoric shows that you aren’t even attempting to steelman the argument. Therefore I’ll end with this one last post. And rereading your very first response, I should have caught this earlier: My arguments I haven’t once made the claim that these bigger religions aren’t cults; I haven’t made any claim in that department. My claim are about why people attend. More specifically, that there is a wide variety of reasons that aren’t because they aren’t believers.
  - kcplate 4y ago
    > that involved practicing arcane rituals worshiping an ancient deity Adding this seems to betray your intent. While worship of a deity might be a practice of some cults, not every cult worships a deity. Conversely, not every religion that worships a deity could be a called a cult. You including it makes it the defining factor in your example above, beyond the standard common features present in many communities and organizations of people.
    - halpmeh 4y ago
      You're cherry picking here. Worshiping the deity was one of the characteristics, the rest being: ritualistic meetings, social fulfillment, familial pressure to be a member of the group, indoctrination from an early age, and emotional support from group leaders. If you pick any of these characteristics individually, you could easily say "not all cults do X, and not all religions are a cult." But taken together, they suggest that many religions are cults.
      - kcplate 4y ago
        > You're cherry picking here. I think you did exactly that in the prior comment. You opined that if from birth the people serving or socializing in the homeless organization incorporated some sort of supernatural element it would be a cult. It feels to me like there is a prejudice against religion with your comments. Bear in mind, I am not criticizing an opposition to religion, just that religion on its face != cult. Narrowing it down to a single element dilutes the definition of a cult. There is a far cry of difference between the Peoples Temple and the Branch Dravidian’s from the local Lutheran and Methodist churches down the street. The two former being commonly understood as a cult, where the two latter would not be commonly understood to be a cult. But all four had that “ancient deity” worship component, but two of them were unequivocally dangerous where two are essentially harmless organizations.

compiler-guy 4y ago

You missed “the donuts are good” reason. And the detail about varying levels of belief. Emotional support from a caring ear is hardly cult like. “I have friends there” is hardly cult like. On the social graph side, say I used to be really into some charity work, say, like a homeless shelter. I sat on the board and volunteered there for years and years and met many people who became friends. Our kids grew up together and we went to their birthday parties and all that. I have since become disenchanted with the way things are run—the new director and I don’t see eye to eye—plus I have found other ways to help out this demographic. But I would probably still hang out there, or at least go to the big events, simply because I have friends there and people that I genuinely like. I’m sorry, but that’s not culty. Your hyperbole works well as a rhetorical strategy, but eliminates all the nuance I was trying to add. Just like as if I had said, “an occasional cookie doesn’t make one fat” and you had replied, “Chowing down on cookies and ice cream actually does make you fat”. It might be true, but it is not responsive to the argument. As I write this I’m en route to a family gathering that excites me not at all, but it will make certain members of my family happy. That’s not cult like, it’s making compromises to get along in the world.

halpmeh 4y ago
So organized religions are not cults because some people just show up for the donuts? You're only trying to add "nuance" because you're intimately familiar with organized religion. When you look at other cults, you say to yourself "obviously that's a cult because they're all zealots." But is that likely to be true? Probably not. Humans always have a wide variety of motivations for the things they do. I'm sure many people have joined cults because they're lonely or hungry. As for your example with the homeless shelter, it would be a cult if you and the other members were part of the homeless shelter based off of a shared philosophy that was given to you from birth that involved practicing arcane rituals worshiping an ancient deity.
- compiler-guy 4y ago
  The donuts example is that some people go not for any shared belief, but for a material benefit that cynically uses the group’s goodwill. But your choice of sarcasm and “boy isn’t this ridiculous” rhetoric shows that you aren’t even attempting to steelman the argument. Therefore I’ll end with this one last post. And rereading your very first response, I should have caught this earlier: My arguments I haven’t once made the claim that these bigger religions aren’t cults; I haven’t made any claim in that department. My claim are about why people attend. More specifically, that there is a wide variety of reasons that aren’t because they aren’t believers.
- kcplate 4y ago
  > that involved practicing arcane rituals worshiping an ancient deity Adding this seems to betray your intent. While worship of a deity might be a practice of some cults, not every cult worships a deity. Conversely, not every religion that worships a deity could be a called a cult. You including it makes it the defining factor in your example above, beyond the standard common features present in many communities and organizations of people.
  - halpmeh 4y ago
    You're cherry picking here. Worshiping the deity was one of the characteristics, the rest being: ritualistic meetings, social fulfillment, familial pressure to be a member of the group, indoctrination from an early age, and emotional support from group leaders. If you pick any of these characteristics individually, you could easily say "not all cults do X, and not all religions are a cult." But taken together, they suggest that many religions are cults.
    - kcplate 4y ago
      > You're cherry picking here. I think you did exactly that in the prior comment. You opined that if from birth the people serving or socializing in the homeless organization incorporated some sort of supernatural element it would be a cult. It feels to me like there is a prejudice against religion with your comments. Bear in mind, I am not criticizing an opposition to religion, just that religion on its face != cult. Narrowing it down to a single element dilutes the definition of a cult. There is a far cry of difference between the Peoples Temple and the Branch Dravidian’s from the local Lutheran and Methodist churches down the street. The two former being commonly understood as a cult, where the two latter would not be commonly understood to be a cult. But all four had that “ancient deity” worship component, but two of them were unequivocally dangerous where two are essentially harmless organizations.