5 ms·

Stop Promoting Programmers

22 points by ZeljkoS 4y ago

raxxorraxor 4y ago
Sadly, I think practically there is much more quality control for programmers than there is for managers. Overall it is true though, although I sometimes hate if decision makers have zero technical knowledge. I think a good manager needs to be able to see the larger picture. You don't have to be an expert, but you require some knowledge for the domain you manage. You have to have self-reflection if you do not and in that case delegate decision making. Doesn't mean a non-programmer wouldn't be able to lead a developer team. Although that rule is probably as much true for any other profession. Lawyers and sales come to mind that have just as much, conflicting priorities in their former non-management careers. Academics fresh from university also make bad leaders. I think having sat at the other end of the table is an important experience to understand the perspective of those you try to manage. Some say communication and collaboration is important. True to a degree, but this is also often means empty crap. Most programmers I know hate empty and superficial crap. The average team of developers usually a far more cooperative than the average sales team. That should of course be leveraged. A team needs a goal, a perspective and a manager needs to know the abilities of a team. I believe many programmers actually do not need too much management if there is a clear target to reach. Still, becoming manager shouldn't be the default goal, but it is sadly often expected.
- ThalesX 4y ago
  > Sadly, I think practically there is much more quality control for programmers than there is for managers. Wholeheartedly agree; I'd also add that it's a lot harder to be a good manager than to be a good programmer. > Still, becoming manager shouldn't be the default goal, but it is sadly often expected. It's not just that it's expected. The amount of work I see your average manager put into projects, and the amount of money and prestige they get out is one of my major FOMO in the industry. I've decided to remain a technical person, to the best of my abilities, but from time to time I do get envious of my manager friends for the factors mentioned above.
eternalban 4y ago
"At some point you’ll notice that often some New Technology is nothing more than (over)simplified version of something you already know under a different name." Gold.
- _thisdot 4y ago
  Yes! I’ve been trying out tailwind-css lately and can’t help but notice they’re basically inline css under a different name!
  - ThalesX 4y ago
    I used to build React components with inline CSS and everyone was going mad about my lack of ability; then I did the switch to tailwindcss and now I'm a top-tier frontender (/s-ish).
    - intelVISA 4y ago
      You made the mistake of doing things the Bad Way(tm) even though it was the Same Way. I wish there weren't many cases like this daily.
  - jononomo 4y ago
    I used to think that too, and then I grokked it: https://elixirforum.com/t/why-am-i-only-now-learning-about-milligram-it-is-included-by-default-why-the-tailwind-hype/43331/43?u=tadasajon https://elixirforum.com/t/why-am-i-only-now-learning-about-m...
singron 4y ago
The title of this article should really be "Don’t promote your programmers into managers", which is the first sentence of a paragraph halfway through. The article doesn't say to stop promoting programmers among programming roles, which would have been quite the controversial take. It's been standard practice throughout the industry for a long time to have deep IC ladders so that you don't have to promote your best ICs to management.
- mcv 4y ago
  Lots of companies don't have those higher programming roles, though. A year ago I left a department that even refused to hire programmers even in the highest two role levels the company did have available for them, but even that highest level was lower than the highest level for scrum masters and POs. Of course they complained about retention of senior developers. I told them why. They're still not changing. The only way to get promoted to the highest engineer levels is by taking on non-technical responsibilities. Beyond that, you've got to become manager, PO or scrum master.
JoeAltmaier 4y ago
This was covered quite adequately by Fred Brooks in The Mythical Man-Month published 1975
ww520 4y ago
“... All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain... Time to die.” The problem is not promoting engineers to management. The problem is an organization does not provide a separate technical track for promoting engineers for their outsized contribution. To get more pay you have to become a manager. Becoming management is the only path up.
- thebigspacefuck 4y ago
  At my current company they say it’s not necessary to go into management, but there are plenty L5+ managers/directors and I don’t know of a single engineer at L5+ outside of management.
- Spivak 4y ago
  And so many companies straight up refuse to give competitive raises at any time other than title bump that it fuels the meme of having to leave every two years if you want to not be underpaid.

22 points by ZeljkoS 4y ago

Sadly, I think practically there is much more quality control for programmers than there is for managers. Overall it is true though, although I sometimes hate if decision makers have zero technical knowledge. I think a good manager needs to be able to see the larger picture. You don't have to be an expert, but you require some knowledge for the domain you manage. You have to have self-reflection if you do not and in that case delegate decision making. Doesn't mean a non-programmer wouldn't be able to lead a developer team. Although that rule is probably as much true for any other profession. Lawyers and sales come to mind that have just as much, conflicting priorities in their former non-management careers. Academics fresh from university also make bad leaders. I think having sat at the other end of the table is an important experience to understand the perspective of those you try to manage. Some say communication and collaboration is important. True to a degree, but this is also often means empty crap. Most programmers I know hate empty and superficial crap. The average team of developers usually a far more cooperative than the average sales team. That should of course be leveraged. A team needs a goal, a perspective and a manager needs to know the abilities of a team. I believe many programmers actually do not need too much management if there is a clear target to reach. Still, becoming manager shouldn't be the default goal, but it is sadly often expected.

ThalesX 4y ago
> Sadly, I think practically there is much more quality control for programmers than there is for managers. Wholeheartedly agree; I'd also add that it's a lot harder to be a good manager than to be a good programmer. > Still, becoming manager shouldn't be the default goal, but it is sadly often expected. It's not just that it's expected. The amount of work I see your average manager put into projects, and the amount of money and prestige they get out is one of my major FOMO in the industry. I've decided to remain a technical person, to the best of my abilities, but from time to time I do get envious of my manager friends for the factors mentioned above.

eternalban 4y ago

"At some point you’ll notice that often some New Technology is nothing more than (over)simplified version of something you already know under a different name." Gold.

_thisdot 4y ago
Yes! I’ve been trying out tailwind-css lately and can’t help but notice they’re basically inline css under a different name!
- ThalesX 4y ago
  I used to build React components with inline CSS and everyone was going mad about my lack of ability; then I did the switch to tailwindcss and now I'm a top-tier frontender (/s-ish).
  - intelVISA 4y ago
    You made the mistake of doing things the Bad Way(tm) even though it was the Same Way. I wish there weren't many cases like this daily.
- jononomo 4y ago
  I used to think that too, and then I grokked it: https://elixirforum.com/t/why-am-i-only-now-learning-about-milligram-it-is-included-by-default-why-the-tailwind-hype/43331/43?u=tadasajon https://elixirforum.com/t/why-am-i-only-now-learning-about-m...

singron 4y ago

The title of this article should really be "Don’t promote your programmers into managers", which is the first sentence of a paragraph halfway through. The article doesn't say to stop promoting programmers among programming roles, which would have been quite the controversial take. It's been standard practice throughout the industry for a long time to have deep IC ladders so that you don't have to promote your best ICs to management.

mcv 4y ago
Lots of companies don't have those higher programming roles, though. A year ago I left a department that even refused to hire programmers even in the highest two role levels the company did have available for them, but even that highest level was lower than the highest level for scrum masters and POs. Of course they complained about retention of senior developers. I told them why. They're still not changing. The only way to get promoted to the highest engineer levels is by taking on non-technical responsibilities. Beyond that, you've got to become manager, PO or scrum master.

JoeAltmaier 4y ago

This was covered quite adequately by Fred Brooks in The Mythical Man-Month published 1975

ww520 4y ago

“... All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain... Time to die.” The problem is not promoting engineers to management. The problem is an organization does not provide a separate technical track for promoting engineers for their outsized contribution. To get more pay you have to become a manager. Becoming management is the only path up.

thebigspacefuck 4y ago
At my current company they say it’s not necessary to go into management, but there are plenty L5+ managers/directors and I don’t know of a single engineer at L5+ outside of management.
Spivak 4y ago
And so many companies straight up refuse to give competitive raises at any time other than title bump that it fuels the meme of having to leave every two years if you want to not be underpaid.