4 ms·

> he basically called SBF out on running a Ponzi scheme and being OK with it (which was then, surprisingly enough, acknowledged by SBF). That's not how I recal

by 3np 4y ago

> he basically called SBF out on running a Ponzi scheme and being OK with it (which was then, surprisingly enough, acknowledged by SBF). That's not how I recall it. Levine asked SBF to describe yield farming and SBF went on his (in)famous thing about boxes, practically calling them out as pyramid schemes (but without mentioning any specific names). At no point was FTX referred to as a ponzi scheme.

the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
Alameda was yield farming though and SBF was running that thing for a while too.
fasthands9 4y ago
Agreed. Levine even said after the interview that he came away more confident in SBF because it sounded to him that SBF's business model was selling people shovels to dig for gold. Even if the gold was fake and worthless. What actually happened was FTX was reliant on these "assets" to get loans even though they were just an exchange that should have just been passing them off to counterparties.
VintageCool 4y ago
After the SBF thing about boxes-- > Matt: (27:13) > I think of myself as like a fairly cynical person. And that was so much more cynical than how I would've described farming. You're just like, well, I'm in the Ponzi business and it's pretty good. > Joe Weisenthal: (27:27) > At no point did any of this require any sort of like economic case, it’s just like other people put money in the box. And so I'm going to too, and then it's more valuable. So they're gonna put more money in, and at no point in the cycle, did it seem to like, describe any sort of like economic purpose? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/sam-bankman-fried-described-yield-farming-and-left-matt-levine-stunned https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/sam-bankm...
bambax 4y ago
Matt did call it a Ponzi scheme in so many words: > I think of myself as like a fairly cynical person, and that was so much more cynical than how I would have described farming. Like, you're just like "well, I'm in the Ponzi business, and it's pretty good!" You can listen to it right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZYqL79GDXU&t=1633s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZYqL79GDXU&t=1633s
- graeme 4y ago
  He was referring to SBF’s description of Defi. SBF wasn’t describing FTX in that quote
- aetherson 4y ago
  Levine himself says that SBF wasn't calling FTX or Alameda ponzi schemes, but rather was saying that some of the coins traded on FTX were ponzis, and that he left that interview feeling impressed with SBF's savvy. Specifically, Levine's words: People on Twitter now are like “he admitted that FTX is a Ponzi!” but of course that’s not true. He conceded a certain validity to my claim that some crypto businesses — not his — are Ponzis. He is just in the business of trading their tokens. In fact, I came away from that conversation bullish on FTX and Bankman-Fried. Reference: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-11-10/ftx-is-still-looking-for-money https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-11-10/ftx-is... (paywalled)
  - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
    > Levine himself says that SBF wasn't calling FTX or Alameda ponzi schemes, but rather was saying that some of the coins traded on FTX were ponzis Hmm, well. When the ponzi schemes inevitably collapse, then so does the trade in them, right?
    - aetherson 4y ago
      Lots of exchanges have survived lots of failures of individual assets traded on those exchanges.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
        Lots of exchanges aren't cryptocurrency-only exchanges.
        aetherson 4y ago
        This all seems very counterfactual and vibes based. To be clear about this conversation, someone claims that Levine "called SBF out on running a Ponzi scheme." I provide a clear quote from Levine disavowing that. You come in and say that well, maybe FTX was unsound in a way that is actually different from what actually went wrong with FTX/Alameda. Is there any content to your contribution here? Or is it all just vibes?

by 3np 4y ago

the_mitsuhiko 4y ago

Alameda was yield farming though and SBF was running that thing for a while too.

fasthands9 4y ago

Agreed. Levine even said after the interview that he came away more confident in SBF because it sounded to him that SBF's business model was selling people shovels to dig for gold. Even if the gold was fake and worthless. What actually happened was FTX was reliant on these "assets" to get loans even though they were just an exchange that should have just been passing them off to counterparties.

VintageCool 4y ago

After the SBF thing about boxes-- > Matt: (27:13) > I think of myself as like a fairly cynical person. And that was so much more cynical than how I would've described farming. You're just like, well, I'm in the Ponzi business and it's pretty good. > Joe Weisenthal: (27:27) > At no point did any of this require any sort of like economic case, it’s just like other people put money in the box. And so I'm going to too, and then it's more valuable. So they're gonna put more money in, and at no point in the cycle, did it seem to like, describe any sort of like economic purpose? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/sam-bankman-fried-described-yield-farming-and-left-matt-levine-stunned https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/sam-bankm...

bambax 4y ago

Matt did call it a Ponzi scheme in so many words: > I think of myself as like a fairly cynical person, and that was so much more cynical than how I would have described farming. Like, you're just like "well, I'm in the Ponzi business, and it's pretty good!" You can listen to it right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZYqL79GDXU&t=1633s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZYqL79GDXU&t=1633s

graeme 4y ago
He was referring to SBF’s description of Defi. SBF wasn’t describing FTX in that quote
aetherson 4y ago
Levine himself says that SBF wasn't calling FTX or Alameda ponzi schemes, but rather was saying that some of the coins traded on FTX were ponzis, and that he left that interview feeling impressed with SBF's savvy. Specifically, Levine's words: People on Twitter now are like “he admitted that FTX is a Ponzi!” but of course that’s not true. He conceded a certain validity to my claim that some crypto businesses — not his — are Ponzis. He is just in the business of trading their tokens. In fact, I came away from that conversation bullish on FTX and Bankman-Fried. Reference: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-11-10/ftx-is-still-looking-for-money https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-11-10/ftx-is... (paywalled)
- SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
  > Levine himself says that SBF wasn't calling FTX or Alameda ponzi schemes, but rather was saying that some of the coins traded on FTX were ponzis Hmm, well. When the ponzi schemes inevitably collapse, then so does the trade in them, right?
  - aetherson 4y ago
    Lots of exchanges have survived lots of failures of individual assets traded on those exchanges.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
      Lots of exchanges aren't cryptocurrency-only exchanges.
      - aetherson 4y ago
        This all seems very counterfactual and vibes based. To be clear about this conversation, someone claims that Levine "called SBF out on running a Ponzi scheme." I provide a clear quote from Levine disavowing that. You come in and say that well, maybe FTX was unsound in a way that is actually different from what actually went wrong with FTX/Alameda. Is there any content to your contribution here? Or is it all just vibes?