6 ms·

So what's your point? Should we join hands and welcome Russia to help themselves in Ukraine? This whataboutism around Ukraine is emblematic of the problem with

So what's your point? Should we join hands and welcome Russia to help themselves in Ukraine? This whataboutism around Ukraine is emblematic of the problem with misaligned postmodern thinking. The fact of the matter is that Russia has violently invaded Ukraine and they are trying to bend Ukraine against its will. It's wrong and the world _should_ come to their side. Likewise if the tables were turned.

kodyo 4y ago
Funny thing is that the tables WERE turned, by NATO.
- piva00 4y ago
  How, exactly?
  - kodyo 4y ago
    Jesus Christ. Every US president since the end of the cold war has authorized eastward expansion of NATO, an alliance whose enemy no longer exists. The current president was brokering arms deals with Ukraine. The previous president was delivering on those deals. After the 2014 coup, a major Ukraine energy company, which was cozy with Putin, hired the Vice President’s son in order to cozy up with the new America-friendly regime. The previous president was impeached for asking Ukraine to investigate corruption by the former Vice President. Putin warned that arming or granting membership to Ukraine’s belligerent new government was a red line Russia could not tolerate. NATO did it anyway. The players in the great game fucked around. Pretending nothing happened prior to 2022 is willful ignorance.
    - syrrim 4y ago
      The previous president was impeached for taking aid from ukraine lest they investigate invented allegations of corruption. That putin warned of something is meaningless. Are we expected to roll over whenever a foreign country makes a threat? Most of these threats are empty; even when they aren't, some things they have no right to threaten us about. A country arming itself to protect from a (demonstrably) belligerent neighbour is one such thing. I'm surprised people eat this ridiculous excuse from putin so easily.
      - kodyo 4y ago
        Yes. Biden also threatened to withhold arms from Ukraine to PREVENT them from investigating corruption. And I suppose if the political establishment wants to fund a proxy war against a nuclear power, they would happily cross the red line.
        piva00 4y ago
        Nope, false, you are literally spreading falsehoods and Russian propaganda, not sure if on purpose or just by sheer ignorance [1]: > Joe Biden leveraged aid to remove top prosecutor as part anti-corruption efforts > It's true that Joe Biden leveraged $1 billion in aid to persuade Ukraine to oust its top prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, in March 2016. But it wasn't because Shokin was investigating Burisma. It was because Shokin wasn't pursuing corruption among the country's politicians. [1] https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/21/fact-check-joe-biden-leveraged-ukraine-aid-oust-corrupt-prosecutor/5991434002/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/21/fact...
        kodyo 4y ago
        Best case scenario: I'm right. https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/463307-solomon-these-once-secret-memos-cast-doubt-on-joe-bidens-ukraine-story/ https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/463307-solomon-these-on... Worst case scenario: Biden did exactly what Trump did.
        piva00 4y ago
        Who is John Solomon? > John F. Solomon is an American journalist who was a contributor to Fox News until late 2020 > in recent years he has been accused of magnifying small scandals, creating fake controversy,[6][7][8] and advancing conspiracy theories. > During the Donald Trump presidency, he advanced Trump-friendly stories including questioning reporting that women who had accused Trump of sexual harassment had also sought payments from partisan political donors[10] and questioning the legitimacy of criminal charges against Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort. Is that someone who you really want to listen to and agree with? If so, best of luck. You are still spreading the words of people who peddle falsehoods, can't you really see that? Are you so ingrained in this point of view that you will die on that hill?
    - piva00 4y ago
      > Every US president since the end of the cold war has authorized eastward expansion of NATO, an alliance whose enemy no longer exists. If those countries wish to join NATO why do they need to ask permission to Russia? This argument really doesn't make sense unless you take away sovereignty of states from the equation, some countries decided they wanted to join NATO, should they be blocked to join a defensive military alliance for what reasons? > After the 2014 coup, a major Ukraine energy company, which was cozy with Putin, hired the Vice President’s son in order to cozy up with the new America-friendly regime. > The previous president was impeached for asking Ukraine to investigate corruption by the former Vice President. What? Trump was clearly asking for a quid pro quo from Ukraine and keeping aid hostage unless he got some dirt on a political opponent. I'm not American so I really can't grasp why you'd bend reality this way to fit your narrative... > Putin warned that arming or granting membership to Ukraine’s belligerent new government was a red line Russia could not tolerate. NATO did it anyway. Ukraine wanted to join NATO, again a defence alliance, with a democratically elected government that came after ousting their previous Russian-puppet president which was openly propped up by Russia/Putin. Putin tolerating it or not it's not his decision to make over the wants of a foreign government. If you support this kind of meddling then you should not have any qualms against other nation-states directly meddling into other countries policies and politics, right? Like you don't have anything against the USA constant meddling into others' affairs, am I correct? Please, source where exactly was the new government of Ukraine belligerent, that's an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
      - ghufran_syed 4y ago
        Similarly, Cuba, a sovereign nation, chose to ally itself with the Soviet Union, another sovereign nation. When the Soviet Union decided to put nuclear missiles in Cuba, just 103 miles from the US mainland, did the US support Cuba and the Soviet Union’s “sovereign rights”? No, they were willing to start a potentially nuclear war with the soviet union over the issue. Do you maybe see an analogy here? The key operating principle in international relations is NOT the sovereignty of nations, its that nations states will do whatever is necessary to maintain their power and protect themselves
      - kodyo 4y ago
    - kube-system 4y ago
      > NATO, an alliance whose enemy no longer exists. The North Atlantic Treaty was signed in an effort prevent war in Europe. ...and here we are today with war in Europe. NATO is more relevant now than it ever has been since it was first established, and I think their current list of applicants is a clear testament to that.

kodyo 4y ago

Funny thing is that the tables WERE turned, by NATO.

piva00 4y ago
How, exactly?
- kodyo 4y ago
  Jesus Christ. Every US president since the end of the cold war has authorized eastward expansion of NATO, an alliance whose enemy no longer exists. The current president was brokering arms deals with Ukraine. The previous president was delivering on those deals. After the 2014 coup, a major Ukraine energy company, which was cozy with Putin, hired the Vice President’s son in order to cozy up with the new America-friendly regime. The previous president was impeached for asking Ukraine to investigate corruption by the former Vice President. Putin warned that arming or granting membership to Ukraine’s belligerent new government was a red line Russia could not tolerate. NATO did it anyway. The players in the great game fucked around. Pretending nothing happened prior to 2022 is willful ignorance.
  - syrrim 4y ago
    The previous president was impeached for taking aid from ukraine lest they investigate invented allegations of corruption. That putin warned of something is meaningless. Are we expected to roll over whenever a foreign country makes a threat? Most of these threats are empty; even when they aren't, some things they have no right to threaten us about. A country arming itself to protect from a (demonstrably) belligerent neighbour is one such thing. I'm surprised people eat this ridiculous excuse from putin so easily.
    - kodyo 4y ago
      Yes. Biden also threatened to withhold arms from Ukraine to PREVENT them from investigating corruption. And I suppose if the political establishment wants to fund a proxy war against a nuclear power, they would happily cross the red line.
      - piva00 4y ago
        Nope, false, you are literally spreading falsehoods and Russian propaganda, not sure if on purpose or just by sheer ignorance [1]: > Joe Biden leveraged aid to remove top prosecutor as part anti-corruption efforts > It's true that Joe Biden leveraged $1 billion in aid to persuade Ukraine to oust its top prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, in March 2016. But it wasn't because Shokin was investigating Burisma. It was because Shokin wasn't pursuing corruption among the country's politicians. [1] https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/21/fact-check-joe-biden-leveraged-ukraine-aid-oust-corrupt-prosecutor/5991434002/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/21/fact...
        kodyo 4y ago
        Best case scenario: I'm right. https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/463307-solomon-these-once-secret-memos-cast-doubt-on-joe-bidens-ukraine-story/ https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/463307-solomon-these-on... Worst case scenario: Biden did exactly what Trump did.
        piva00 4y ago
        Who is John Solomon? > John F. Solomon is an American journalist who was a contributor to Fox News until late 2020 > in recent years he has been accused of magnifying small scandals, creating fake controversy,[6][7][8] and advancing conspiracy theories. > During the Donald Trump presidency, he advanced Trump-friendly stories including questioning reporting that women who had accused Trump of sexual harassment had also sought payments from partisan political donors[10] and questioning the legitimacy of criminal charges against Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort. Is that someone who you really want to listen to and agree with? If so, best of luck. You are still spreading the words of people who peddle falsehoods, can't you really see that? Are you so ingrained in this point of view that you will die on that hill?
  - piva00 4y ago
    > Every US president since the end of the cold war has authorized eastward expansion of NATO, an alliance whose enemy no longer exists. If those countries wish to join NATO why do they need to ask permission to Russia? This argument really doesn't make sense unless you take away sovereignty of states from the equation, some countries decided they wanted to join NATO, should they be blocked to join a defensive military alliance for what reasons? > After the 2014 coup, a major Ukraine energy company, which was cozy with Putin, hired the Vice President’s son in order to cozy up with the new America-friendly regime. > The previous president was impeached for asking Ukraine to investigate corruption by the former Vice President. What? Trump was clearly asking for a quid pro quo from Ukraine and keeping aid hostage unless he got some dirt on a political opponent. I'm not American so I really can't grasp why you'd bend reality this way to fit your narrative... > Putin warned that arming or granting membership to Ukraine’s belligerent new government was a red line Russia could not tolerate. NATO did it anyway. Ukraine wanted to join NATO, again a defence alliance, with a democratically elected government that came after ousting their previous Russian-puppet president which was openly propped up by Russia/Putin. Putin tolerating it or not it's not his decision to make over the wants of a foreign government. If you support this kind of meddling then you should not have any qualms against other nation-states directly meddling into other countries policies and politics, right? Like you don't have anything against the USA constant meddling into others' affairs, am I correct? Please, source where exactly was the new government of Ukraine belligerent, that's an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
    - ghufran_syed 4y ago
      Similarly, Cuba, a sovereign nation, chose to ally itself with the Soviet Union, another sovereign nation. When the Soviet Union decided to put nuclear missiles in Cuba, just 103 miles from the US mainland, did the US support Cuba and the Soviet Union’s “sovereign rights”? No, they were willing to start a potentially nuclear war with the soviet union over the issue. Do you maybe see an analogy here? The key operating principle in international relations is NOT the sovereignty of nations, its that nations states will do whatever is necessary to maintain their power and protect themselves
    - kodyo 4y ago
  - kube-system 4y ago
    > NATO, an alliance whose enemy no longer exists. The North Atlantic Treaty was signed in an effort prevent war in Europe. ...and here we are today with war in Europe. NATO is more relevant now than it ever has been since it was first established, and I think their current list of applicants is a clear testament to that.