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Universal is a bit hyperbolic here. Maybe we can say maximizing utility is universal, but utility comes in a lot of forms with profit being only one of them. F

by bumby 4y ago

Universal is a bit hyperbolic here. Maybe we can say maximizing utility is universal, but utility comes in a lot of forms with profit being only one of them. For example, someone doing volunteer work usually isn't trying to maximize their profit. They may be trying to maximize something else, but that fact means the profit motive isn't a universal first principle.

WalterBright 4y ago
You'd have to look hard to find people who aren't motivated by money. Many charities seem to exist only to enrich the people who run them.
- bumby 4y ago
  Motivated by money isn’t the same as only (or even primarily) motivated by money. We all intuitively recognize this. Why do people watch football or spend time with family on Sundays instead of working another job? Because they recognize there’s marginal utility and are more motivated by the increase in quality of life than the increase in money. So much so that we look at people who try to maximize profit at all costs as having sociopathy.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Being motivated by self-sacrifice is pretty rare, and so trying to build a system based on that simply doesn't work. On the other hand, a system built around people being selfishly motivated by money works pretty darn well.
    - bumby 4y ago
      Nobody said “self-sacrifice” and it’s somewhat telling that that’s the lens you viewed it through. I said “maximizing utility” which is the opposite of self-sacrifice. I’m just saying “utility” is measured across more dimensions than profit. E.g., do you pick your spouse/friends or make a decision to have children based on their ability to maximize your wealth?
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        > Nobody said “self-sacrifice” I was responding to the claim about NASA. > do you pick your spouse/friends or make a decision to have children based on their ability to maximize your wealth? People marry for money all the time. If you're a man, and have no money and no prospects for money, what do you think your odds are of finding true love reciprocated? As for children, the birth rate declines as the economics of having children changed from an asset to a liability. This happens in country after country. People most definitely historically have had children for their ability to produce for the family. I know it's gauche to suggest that people are motivated by money, but it's a fact that they are, even in affairs of the heart, and especially in their professions and their behavior while working.
        bumby 4y ago
        In what way is NASA implying self-sacrifice? I think you might be shoe-horning some personal commentary here. I’ve met some who became civil servants explicitly because they weren’t motivated primarily by profit. But it was still maximizing some other feature that added ton their well-being. It wasn’t self sacrifice. >I know it's gauche to suggest that people are motivated by money, but it's a fact that they are, even in affairs of the heart We probably fundamentally disagree here. Again, I’m not saying people aren’t motivated by money. I’m saying they aren’t only motivated by money. The people I’ve met that think human interactions can be distilled to such a simple principle tend to struggle in their personal relationships in my experience. The fact that you’re willing to type away on HN instead of trying to make more money tells me you know it’s a balancing act. Besides, I think people are more motivated by status (being the hierarchical primates that we are) and money is just a clumsy proxy for status. For example, status chasing men are more apt to date a beautiful but poor female than a rich homely one.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        > In what way is NASA implying self-sacrifice? That they are careful with other peoples' money. > I’m saying they aren’t only motivated by money. I never said only. I said it is a powerful motivator that motivates nearly all of us. > status is another path to getting money. > status chasing men are more apt to date a beautiful but poor female than a rich homely one What they'll do is marry the rich one and cheat on her with the beauties. Besides, having an elegant beauty on your arm gives a big boost to one's career. Just look at JFK and Jackie. There's no doubt Jackie was a big help. And there's no doubt JFK selected her with that help in mind. You can believe what you like. But I (and many I know) have become a lot happier through recognizing how human nature actually is rather than believing in the fantasy. The unhappy people I know are the ones who still believe in the fantasy, and are constantly disappointed.

by bumby 4y ago

WalterBright 4y ago

You'd have to look hard to find people who aren't motivated by money. Many charities seem to exist only to enrich the people who run them.

bumby 4y ago
Motivated by money isn’t the same as only (or even primarily) motivated by money. We all intuitively recognize this. Why do people watch football or spend time with family on Sundays instead of working another job? Because they recognize there’s marginal utility and are more motivated by the increase in quality of life than the increase in money. So much so that we look at people who try to maximize profit at all costs as having sociopathy.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Being motivated by self-sacrifice is pretty rare, and so trying to build a system based on that simply doesn't work. On the other hand, a system built around people being selfishly motivated by money works pretty darn well.
  - bumby 4y ago
    Nobody said “self-sacrifice” and it’s somewhat telling that that’s the lens you viewed it through. I said “maximizing utility” which is the opposite of self-sacrifice. I’m just saying “utility” is measured across more dimensions than profit. E.g., do you pick your spouse/friends or make a decision to have children based on their ability to maximize your wealth?
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      > Nobody said “self-sacrifice” I was responding to the claim about NASA. > do you pick your spouse/friends or make a decision to have children based on their ability to maximize your wealth? People marry for money all the time. If you're a man, and have no money and no prospects for money, what do you think your odds are of finding true love reciprocated? As for children, the birth rate declines as the economics of having children changed from an asset to a liability. This happens in country after country. People most definitely historically have had children for their ability to produce for the family. I know it's gauche to suggest that people are motivated by money, but it's a fact that they are, even in affairs of the heart, and especially in their professions and their behavior while working.
      - bumby 4y ago
        In what way is NASA implying self-sacrifice? I think you might be shoe-horning some personal commentary here. I’ve met some who became civil servants explicitly because they weren’t motivated primarily by profit. But it was still maximizing some other feature that added ton their well-being. It wasn’t self sacrifice. >I know it's gauche to suggest that people are motivated by money, but it's a fact that they are, even in affairs of the heart We probably fundamentally disagree here. Again, I’m not saying people aren’t motivated by money. I’m saying they aren’t only motivated by money. The people I’ve met that think human interactions can be distilled to such a simple principle tend to struggle in their personal relationships in my experience. The fact that you’re willing to type away on HN instead of trying to make more money tells me you know it’s a balancing act. Besides, I think people are more motivated by status (being the hierarchical primates that we are) and money is just a clumsy proxy for status. For example, status chasing men are more apt to date a beautiful but poor female than a rich homely one.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        > In what way is NASA implying self-sacrifice? That they are careful with other peoples' money. > I’m saying they aren’t only motivated by money. I never said only. I said it is a powerful motivator that motivates nearly all of us. > status is another path to getting money. > status chasing men are more apt to date a beautiful but poor female than a rich homely one What they'll do is marry the rich one and cheat on her with the beauties. Besides, having an elegant beauty on your arm gives a big boost to one's career. Just look at JFK and Jackie. There's no doubt Jackie was a big help. And there's no doubt JFK selected her with that help in mind. You can believe what you like. But I (and many I know) have become a lot happier through recognizing how human nature actually is rather than believing in the fantasy. The unhappy people I know are the ones who still believe in the fantasy, and are constantly disappointed.