6 ms·

Conversely, if the sector grows, it may well be that all workers in it make more. This has been the trend in many, many high tech scenarios. Or, we can let the

Conversely, if the sector grows, it may well be that all workers in it make more. This has been the trend in many, many high tech scenarios. Or, we can let the skilled workers end up elsewhere, those places develop the next innovations, and soon the high paying jobs are not here, but have moved to those places willing to invest in talent. The main reason the US has such high salaries is not that we stopped skilled workers coming here - around 50% of Fortune 500 companies were started here by imiigrants. I, as a US citizen, want the world's best and brightest to come here, so I can learn, have to compete, and become part of improving tech sectors, not backwater xenophobic countries banning workers. It's historically extremely shortsighted to think that having to compete solely makes wages lower. If that were true, we'd all have lower wages than our ancestors, which is demonstrably untrue.

UncleEntity 4y ago
> If that were true, we'd all have lower wages than our ancestors, which is demonstrably untrue. I got a good laugh out of that… Every study I’ve heard about says that relative wages have been steadily decreasing compared to earlier generations. This naturally leads to a lower standard of living which, incidentally, get covered over by technological advances. Not that I blame immigration for this but take issue with the “demonstrably untrue” part. You can prove that my niece making $15/hr in 2022 is higher than her mother making $5/hr in 1987 for essentially the same job but what’s the relative difference?
- gilbetron 4y ago
  $5 in 1987 is around $13.12 in 2022 dollars.
  - UncleEntity 4y ago
    > $5 in 1987 is around $13.12 in 2022 dollars. Huh, not sure what all these minimum wage workers are complaining about then, that’s like 14% better.
    - SideQuark 4y ago
      US min wage is 7.50. Does that adjust your view?
- SideQuark 4y ago
  >Every study I’ve heard about says that relative wages have been steadily decreasing compared to earlier generations Cite one. There's ample evidence (Census, BLS, FRED, many more) pointing otherwise. For example, here [1] is FRED inflation adjusted median personal income, which is clearly not at all near your claim. Here's [2] FRED inflation adjusted median household income, also no where near your claim. There are many relevant factors that make this tricky, and pop econ often presents bad data. For example, wages is not total remuneration (which is tracked by BLS) which is not total cost to employ (also tracked by BLS). Both of those include other factors changing over time, such as more vacation, healthcare perks, regulatory requirement changes (FMLA, OSHA, more). So if you're going to talk about wages, you need to address total benefits. Hint: this factor is extremely relevant. Also, you need to adjust properly for demographics. On average people make more as they age. So as a population ages or gets younger, median and mean wages can change for the entire population, but it's not an accurate comparison: it is possible for every person at every age to make more than a person in a previous generation at that age, yet for the median to decrease, simply because demographics are changing where in careers the median lies. Hint: this factor is relevant. You also need to be careful if you're talking household wages, since household makeup also changes over time. When you consider these and other relevant factors, I've seen nothing that points to people being poorer than previous generations in any widespread or wholesale grouping, at any decile of the income breakdown. And I've spent significant time researching this issue. In fact, if you correct the first order data I just presented from FRED, the modern person makes even more than the FRED graph: the workforce are skewing younger (as Boomers retire), companies are adding more benefits (both to compete and because of legislative requirements), and households are becoming more single person (i.e. single earner), yet the median household income still grows. So, cite your evidence. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N [2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N
kodyo 4y ago
That’s not what the H1B program is for, though.
JamesianP 4y ago
It's closer to 25 percent for immigrants. Your stat includes children of immigrants. Maybe the US is just a better place for business? With the attraction to immigrants being an effect not a cause. Economic predictions have been saying for decades that the number of software engineering jobs will be increasing much faster than the population. It's supply and demand.
weatherlite 4y ago
> The main reason the US has such high salaries is not that we stopped skilled workers coming here - around 50% of Fortune 500 companies were started here by imiigrants Well, its also not because of immigration, at least not mainly. Europe has plenty of immigration and salaries are much lower. In my non expert view its the U.S world hegemony and dollar's status as reserve currency that do the trick. U.S can stop immigration tomorrow and still salaries will be very high for decades.

UncleEntity 4y ago

> If that were true, we'd all have lower wages than our ancestors, which is demonstrably untrue. I got a good laugh out of that… Every study I’ve heard about says that relative wages have been steadily decreasing compared to earlier generations. This naturally leads to a lower standard of living which, incidentally, get covered over by technological advances. Not that I blame immigration for this but take issue with the “demonstrably untrue” part. You can prove that my niece making $15/hr in 2022 is higher than her mother making $5/hr in 1987 for essentially the same job but what’s the relative difference?

gilbetron 4y ago
$5 in 1987 is around $13.12 in 2022 dollars.
- UncleEntity 4y ago
  > $5 in 1987 is around $13.12 in 2022 dollars. Huh, not sure what all these minimum wage workers are complaining about then, that’s like 14% better.
  - SideQuark 4y ago
    US min wage is 7.50. Does that adjust your view?
SideQuark 4y ago
>Every study I’ve heard about says that relative wages have been steadily decreasing compared to earlier generations Cite one. There's ample evidence (Census, BLS, FRED, many more) pointing otherwise. For example, here [1] is FRED inflation adjusted median personal income, which is clearly not at all near your claim. Here's [2] FRED inflation adjusted median household income, also no where near your claim. There are many relevant factors that make this tricky, and pop econ often presents bad data. For example, wages is not total remuneration (which is tracked by BLS) which is not total cost to employ (also tracked by BLS). Both of those include other factors changing over time, such as more vacation, healthcare perks, regulatory requirement changes (FMLA, OSHA, more). So if you're going to talk about wages, you need to address total benefits. Hint: this factor is extremely relevant. Also, you need to adjust properly for demographics. On average people make more as they age. So as a population ages or gets younger, median and mean wages can change for the entire population, but it's not an accurate comparison: it is possible for every person at every age to make more than a person in a previous generation at that age, yet for the median to decrease, simply because demographics are changing where in careers the median lies. Hint: this factor is relevant. You also need to be careful if you're talking household wages, since household makeup also changes over time. When you consider these and other relevant factors, I've seen nothing that points to people being poorer than previous generations in any widespread or wholesale grouping, at any decile of the income breakdown. And I've spent significant time researching this issue. In fact, if you correct the first order data I just presented from FRED, the modern person makes even more than the FRED graph: the workforce are skewing younger (as Boomers retire), companies are adding more benefits (both to compete and because of legislative requirements), and households are becoming more single person (i.e. single earner), yet the median household income still grows. So, cite your evidence. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N [2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

kodyo 4y ago

That’s not what the H1B program is for, though.

JamesianP 4y ago

It's closer to 25 percent for immigrants. Your stat includes children of immigrants. Maybe the US is just a better place for business? With the attraction to immigrants being an effect not a cause. Economic predictions have been saying for decades that the number of software engineering jobs will be increasing much faster than the population. It's supply and demand.

weatherlite 4y ago

> The main reason the US has such high salaries is not that we stopped skilled workers coming here - around 50% of Fortune 500 companies were started here by imiigrants Well, its also not because of immigration, at least not mainly. Europe has plenty of immigration and salaries are much lower. In my non expert view its the U.S world hegemony and dollar's status as reserve currency that do the trick. U.S can stop immigration tomorrow and still salaries will be very high for decades.