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I've long been embarrassed that US immigration law so often errs on the side of xenophobia and cruelty. That said, I don't understand education+early career vi

I've long been embarrassed that US immigration law so often errs on the side of xenophobia and cruelty. That said, I don't understand education+early career visas. "Come get an education at one of our universities, and then take your utility elsewhere!" If we're gonna train people, we should have onramps to employment so our economy can benefit too.

htkibar 4y ago
It brings money, and spreads influence. Solves a different type of problem.
988747 4y ago
> I've long been embarrassed that US immigration law so often errs on the side of xenophobia and cruelty. That's the effect of being the single most desirable target for immigrants. If US immigration laws were any more lenient, it would be the most populous country on Earth already, way ahead of India and China.
- factsarelolz 4y ago
  - calculatte 4y ago
    Your understanding seems to be based completely off the agitprop the media passes off as "news" and the politicians push for donations. Provoking fear and anger is the preferred way to capture your attention. It's time to get out of the echo chamber and stop falling for it.
    - factsarelolz 4y ago
      > Your understanding seems to be based completely off the agitprop the media passes off as "news" and the politicians push for donations. The FBI is neither of those institutions. https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/threats-to-the-homeland-evaluating-the-landscape-20-years-after-911-wray-092121 https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/threats-to-the-homeland-e... https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/fbi-dhs-domestic-terrorism-strategic-report-2022.pdf/view https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/fbi-dhs-domestic-terrori... https://www.justice.gov/jmd/page/file/1398831/download https://www.justice.gov/jmd/page/file/1398831/download https://homeland.house.gov/news/in-the-news/domestic-terrorism-is-a-threat-we-cant-ignore https://homeland.house.gov/news/in-the-news/domestic-terrori...
      - calculatte 4y ago
        Are you joking? Even in recent history, FBI has a record of routinely knowingly lying and spreading propaganda to deceive the American public. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_FBI_controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_FBI_controversies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d4Q7YGBQns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d4Q7YGBQns https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/press/rep/releases/newly-declassified-document-indicates-fbi-misled-congress-on-reliability-of-steele-dossier https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/press/rep/releases/newly-de... https://americanmilitarynews.com/2022/09/fbi-lied-to-judge-to-drill-into-1400-beverly-hills-safe-deposit-boxes-lawsuit-says/ https://americanmilitarynews.com/2022/09/fbi-lied-to-judge-t... https://nypost.com/2022/06/11/the-fbi-knew-russiagate-was-a-lie-but-hid-that-truth/ https://nypost.com/2022/06/11/the-fbi-knew-russiagate-was-a-...
        factsarelolz 4y ago
        So who do we believe then?
  - nebula8804 4y ago
    It remains to be seen if this is the beginning of a new century of US dominance thanks to the US's relatively good demographics or if the iceberg has hit the titanic and we don't know it yet. Your reasoning may contribute to convincing some top talent to skip the US but my bet is that if the economic winds change due to an empire in decline then those scenarios you listed become magnified.
  - qazxcvbnmlp 4y ago
    While these groups are certainly present, they are a such a small tiny fraction of a percent, that you can live a happy life without seeing or worrying about them. I lived in a small town that was known for white supremacy and in practice most people there could care less.
    - factsarelolz 4y ago
      According to Federal Agencies it is not a small tiny fraction, there are thousands of Domestic Terrorist activities. https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/threats-to-the-homeland-evaluating-the-landscape-20-years-after-911-wray-092121 https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/threats-to-the-homeland-e...
  - nostrademons 4y ago
    There's a pretty wide range of hostility to outsiders, and the U.S. is not in the bottom half. The U.S. is basically embarrassing compared to...Canada, and maybe some smaller English-speaking countries like Australia, New Zealand, and Iceland. But compared to Russia, or Qatar, or even relatively developed countries like France and Japan, the U.S. is paradise for immigrants.
  - 988747 4y ago
    I meant "desirable" as in "there are many millions of people trying to get there, every year". Some of those people even risk their lives for it. How they are treated after they get there is a completely separate topic.
llampx 4y ago
Foreigners pay tons of money for the privilege of being at an American university, even state schools. Its really no comparison to in-state tuition. Its very good business for the universities. After that, the best find a way to remain in the country anyway, the rest are sent back through the ruthless H1B program.
- verst 4y ago
  Most people will transition from F-1 student visa OPT (Optional Practical Training) which has a multi-year STEM extension to H1B. Essentially you have 3 chances to get a H1B if you can find an employer willing to go through the process while you are already legally in the country. I have never met any current or former H1B holder who didn't enter the program through this route. I am a naturalized citizen who also followed this path.
BitwiseFool 4y ago
>"I've long been embarrassed that US immigration law so often errs on the side of xenophobia and cruelty." The United States has some of the most generous and charitable immigration policies of all countries on Earth. The problem is that the sheer number of people trying to immigrate means that it appears cruel for turning so many people down. Particularly when people don't look into just how restrictive other developed nations are with their own policies.
- 22SAS 4y ago
  This is correct. Most European countries have much more stringent immigration policies. Switzerland is a great example, where the process is longer and also they checks to see whether an applicant has indeed assimilated well, are a lot better. Western nations need to adopt more stringent immigration policies and also be much more rigorous in testing how well the applicants have assimilated. Most of the current 1st gen. immigrants hardly make any effort to assimilate.
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    Modern US culture holds that assimilation is an evil to be avoided. The old metaphor of the "melting pot" has been tossed out in favor of a "salad bowl". Assimilation is the opposite of diversity, and since diversity is good, assimilation is bad. This attitude is going about as well as you'd expect.
    - 22SAS 4y ago
      Europe is seeing the "benefits" of this policy, Canada will soon be next. The "geniuses" supporting all this do not realize is that this is how you destroy the culture that your ancestors built, screw up social harmony among different groups, and how your fuel the rise of people joining alt-right movements.
    - ROTMetro 4y ago
      No it doesn't. Simply asserting this statement does not make it so. Modern US culture is very much anti undocumented immigration, but that is something completely different. No one is pushing to cut the 1 million green cards issues a year, and that would be happening is what you claim was even remotely true.
blindriver 4y ago
You literally have no idea about the immigration policies in other countries. Some countries won't let you become citizens unless it's by blood no matter how long you've lived there (Japan). Many countries will force you to give up your citizenship if you want to get a new citizenship. The US and Canada have the most lenient and generous citizenship policies in the world. I personally think we should only confer citizenship on people who are in the country legally. There's too many tourist vacationers that come here to give birth to their child, incur hospital fees that they won't pay, and then fly back home. The fact it takes so long for actual good immigrants is terrible policy. My close friend from India who was making over $1 million per year at FAANG has been waiting over a decade for his Green Card. The system is a mess. He is also a proponent of very strong immigration rules because he sees how the rules are being bent and it's utterly unfair for those who follow the rules.
- 22SAS 4y ago
  Japan definitely does allow naturalization for non-Japanese, source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_nationality_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_nationality_law Germany allows too since I have seen many, many first generation immigrants become German citizens.
  - throwaway675309 4y ago
    Did you bother to read the article that you posted? "Foreigners over the age of 18 (or age 20 prior to April 1, 2022) may become Japanese citizens by naturalization after residing in the country for at least five years, renouncing any previous nationalities, and proving self-sufficiency through their occupation or existing financial assets." You have to renounce previous nationalities, whereas the reverse the United States is much more generous towards the possibility of dual citizenship.
    - 22SAS 4y ago
      I did, did you bother to read that the OP I responded to posted "Some countries won't let you become citizens unless it's by blood no matter how long you've lived there (Japan)"? I was pointing out that Japan does let people become citizens after they've lived there for a period of time, the OP was suggesting the complete opposite. Renouncing previous nationalities is not the same as Japan not allowing people to become citizens, no matter how long they have lived there.
mistrial9 4y ago
> xenophobia and cruelty this blames the reader of the comment indirectly, and calls to gather and act now to remedy these obvious and ugly moral traits yet, most readers (like me) have had nothing to do with setting the rules for this system, nor implementing them. In addition, it is large companies that routinely exercise the actual restrictions.. and yes I have seen it directly. Overall, this comment to flay and riddle the reader with guilt over this issue, is corrosive to unity.. and comes off as whiny and naive
- bsimpson 4y ago
  taylor-swift-wtf.gif How does me, an American, being embarrassed that it's hard for my friends from other countries to visit and/or live here make an abstract reader feel guilty?
  - kodyo 4y ago
    Because it’s not your fault, so feeling guilty or embarrassed about it is dumb.
ROTMetro 4y ago
The limit laws were put in place for the opposite reason of xenophobia and cruelty. It was to give immigrants from ALL countries a chance, and to provide a diverse group of new Americans. There is not going to ever be unlimited immigration, so knowing that, it is only fair to divide green cards among countries. Xenophobia would be if the USA only gave visas to Western Europeans and Australia/Canada. I remember in the 80s it was pretty common to find 'undocumented' Canadians and Irish. Your argument wouldn't stand up then as xenophobic USA not wanting those foreign Canadians and Irish, and it doesn't hold up now. The USA is has some of the largest legal immigration rates in the world.
kodyo 4y ago
Universities like the cheap foreign research labor. Foreign students depress wages for American ones. Americans opt out and choose a different career. Corruption all the way down, friends.

htkibar 4y ago

It brings money, and spreads influence. Solves a different type of problem.

988747 4y ago

> I've long been embarrassed that US immigration law so often errs on the side of xenophobia and cruelty. That's the effect of being the single most desirable target for immigrants. If US immigration laws were any more lenient, it would be the most populous country on Earth already, way ahead of India and China.

factsarelolz 4y ago
- calculatte 4y ago
  Your understanding seems to be based completely off the agitprop the media passes off as "news" and the politicians push for donations. Provoking fear and anger is the preferred way to capture your attention. It's time to get out of the echo chamber and stop falling for it.
  - factsarelolz 4y ago
    > Your understanding seems to be based completely off the agitprop the media passes off as "news" and the politicians push for donations. The FBI is neither of those institutions. https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/threats-to-the-homeland-evaluating-the-landscape-20-years-after-911-wray-092121 https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/threats-to-the-homeland-e... https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/fbi-dhs-domestic-terrorism-strategic-report-2022.pdf/view https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/fbi-dhs-domestic-terrori... https://www.justice.gov/jmd/page/file/1398831/download https://www.justice.gov/jmd/page/file/1398831/download https://homeland.house.gov/news/in-the-news/domestic-terrorism-is-a-threat-we-cant-ignore https://homeland.house.gov/news/in-the-news/domestic-terrori...
    - calculatte 4y ago
      Are you joking? Even in recent history, FBI has a record of routinely knowingly lying and spreading propaganda to deceive the American public. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_FBI_controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_FBI_controversies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d4Q7YGBQns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d4Q7YGBQns https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/press/rep/releases/newly-declassified-document-indicates-fbi-misled-congress-on-reliability-of-steele-dossier https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/press/rep/releases/newly-de... https://americanmilitarynews.com/2022/09/fbi-lied-to-judge-to-drill-into-1400-beverly-hills-safe-deposit-boxes-lawsuit-says/ https://americanmilitarynews.com/2022/09/fbi-lied-to-judge-t... https://nypost.com/2022/06/11/the-fbi-knew-russiagate-was-a-lie-but-hid-that-truth/ https://nypost.com/2022/06/11/the-fbi-knew-russiagate-was-a-...
      - factsarelolz 4y ago
        So who do we believe then?
- nebula8804 4y ago
  It remains to be seen if this is the beginning of a new century of US dominance thanks to the US's relatively good demographics or if the iceberg has hit the titanic and we don't know it yet. Your reasoning may contribute to convincing some top talent to skip the US but my bet is that if the economic winds change due to an empire in decline then those scenarios you listed become magnified.
- qazxcvbnmlp 4y ago
  While these groups are certainly present, they are a such a small tiny fraction of a percent, that you can live a happy life without seeing or worrying about them. I lived in a small town that was known for white supremacy and in practice most people there could care less.
  - factsarelolz 4y ago
    According to Federal Agencies it is not a small tiny fraction, there are thousands of Domestic Terrorist activities. https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/threats-to-the-homeland-evaluating-the-landscape-20-years-after-911-wray-092121 https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/threats-to-the-homeland-e...
- nostrademons 4y ago
  There's a pretty wide range of hostility to outsiders, and the U.S. is not in the bottom half. The U.S. is basically embarrassing compared to...Canada, and maybe some smaller English-speaking countries like Australia, New Zealand, and Iceland. But compared to Russia, or Qatar, or even relatively developed countries like France and Japan, the U.S. is paradise for immigrants.
- 988747 4y ago
  I meant "desirable" as in "there are many millions of people trying to get there, every year". Some of those people even risk their lives for it. How they are treated after they get there is a completely separate topic.

llampx 4y ago

Foreigners pay tons of money for the privilege of being at an American university, even state schools. Its really no comparison to in-state tuition. Its very good business for the universities. After that, the best find a way to remain in the country anyway, the rest are sent back through the ruthless H1B program.

verst 4y ago
Most people will transition from F-1 student visa OPT (Optional Practical Training) which has a multi-year STEM extension to H1B. Essentially you have 3 chances to get a H1B if you can find an employer willing to go through the process while you are already legally in the country. I have never met any current or former H1B holder who didn't enter the program through this route. I am a naturalized citizen who also followed this path.

BitwiseFool 4y ago

>"I've long been embarrassed that US immigration law so often errs on the side of xenophobia and cruelty." The United States has some of the most generous and charitable immigration policies of all countries on Earth. The problem is that the sheer number of people trying to immigrate means that it appears cruel for turning so many people down. Particularly when people don't look into just how restrictive other developed nations are with their own policies.

22SAS 4y ago
This is correct. Most European countries have much more stringent immigration policies. Switzerland is a great example, where the process is longer and also they checks to see whether an applicant has indeed assimilated well, are a lot better. Western nations need to adopt more stringent immigration policies and also be much more rigorous in testing how well the applicants have assimilated. Most of the current 1st gen. immigrants hardly make any effort to assimilate.
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  Modern US culture holds that assimilation is an evil to be avoided. The old metaphor of the "melting pot" has been tossed out in favor of a "salad bowl". Assimilation is the opposite of diversity, and since diversity is good, assimilation is bad. This attitude is going about as well as you'd expect.
  - 22SAS 4y ago
    Europe is seeing the "benefits" of this policy, Canada will soon be next. The "geniuses" supporting all this do not realize is that this is how you destroy the culture that your ancestors built, screw up social harmony among different groups, and how your fuel the rise of people joining alt-right movements.
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    No it doesn't. Simply asserting this statement does not make it so. Modern US culture is very much anti undocumented immigration, but that is something completely different. No one is pushing to cut the 1 million green cards issues a year, and that would be happening is what you claim was even remotely true.

blindriver 4y ago

You literally have no idea about the immigration policies in other countries. Some countries won't let you become citizens unless it's by blood no matter how long you've lived there (Japan). Many countries will force you to give up your citizenship if you want to get a new citizenship. The US and Canada have the most lenient and generous citizenship policies in the world. I personally think we should only confer citizenship on people who are in the country legally. There's too many tourist vacationers that come here to give birth to their child, incur hospital fees that they won't pay, and then fly back home. The fact it takes so long for actual good immigrants is terrible policy. My close friend from India who was making over $1 million per year at FAANG has been waiting over a decade for his Green Card. The system is a mess. He is also a proponent of very strong immigration rules because he sees how the rules are being bent and it's utterly unfair for those who follow the rules.

22SAS 4y ago
Japan definitely does allow naturalization for non-Japanese, source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_nationality_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_nationality_law Germany allows too since I have seen many, many first generation immigrants become German citizens.
- throwaway675309 4y ago
  Did you bother to read the article that you posted? "Foreigners over the age of 18 (or age 20 prior to April 1, 2022) may become Japanese citizens by naturalization after residing in the country for at least five years, renouncing any previous nationalities, and proving self-sufficiency through their occupation or existing financial assets." You have to renounce previous nationalities, whereas the reverse the United States is much more generous towards the possibility of dual citizenship.
  - 22SAS 4y ago
    I did, did you bother to read that the OP I responded to posted "Some countries won't let you become citizens unless it's by blood no matter how long you've lived there (Japan)"? I was pointing out that Japan does let people become citizens after they've lived there for a period of time, the OP was suggesting the complete opposite. Renouncing previous nationalities is not the same as Japan not allowing people to become citizens, no matter how long they have lived there.

mistrial9 4y ago

> xenophobia and cruelty this blames the reader of the comment indirectly, and calls to gather and act now to remedy these obvious and ugly moral traits yet, most readers (like me) have had nothing to do with setting the rules for this system, nor implementing them. In addition, it is large companies that routinely exercise the actual restrictions.. and yes I have seen it directly. Overall, this comment to flay and riddle the reader with guilt over this issue, is corrosive to unity.. and comes off as whiny and naive

bsimpson 4y ago
taylor-swift-wtf.gif How does me, an American, being embarrassed that it's hard for my friends from other countries to visit and/or live here make an abstract reader feel guilty?
- kodyo 4y ago
  Because it’s not your fault, so feeling guilty or embarrassed about it is dumb.

ROTMetro 4y ago

The limit laws were put in place for the opposite reason of xenophobia and cruelty. It was to give immigrants from ALL countries a chance, and to provide a diverse group of new Americans. There is not going to ever be unlimited immigration, so knowing that, it is only fair to divide green cards among countries. Xenophobia would be if the USA only gave visas to Western Europeans and Australia/Canada. I remember in the 80s it was pretty common to find 'undocumented' Canadians and Irish. Your argument wouldn't stand up then as xenophobic USA not wanting those foreign Canadians and Irish, and it doesn't hold up now. The USA is has some of the largest legal immigration rates in the world.

kodyo 4y ago

Universities like the cheap foreign research labor. Foreign students depress wages for American ones. Americans opt out and choose a different career. Corruption all the way down, friends.