7 ms·

An eloquent description which captures the essence of one possible reaction. Mine was different (I live in Israel, had a similar encounter) but the core experie

by idan 15y ago

An eloquent description which captures the essence of one possible reaction. Mine was different (I live in Israel, had a similar encounter) but the core experience is similar. It seems cliche, but there is a fundamental truth to the fact that most westerners are simply unaware of what the "I fear for my bodily integrity" sensation is and does to your life. OP's newly-discovered appreciation of how crowded buses present a potential security threat is a great example. It isn't that you suddenly see your life in a whole new light, it's that you regard various mundane things with a new, orthogonal parameter: is this situation more likely to result in harm to me? Like all things, eventually you become inured and looking at a situation from a security perspective becomes a routine thought passing through your head along with "shit, I forgot to pay the gas bill." Without getting into Israel/Palestine, this is a slice of what living in Israeli society is roughly like.

swombat 15y ago
I can't even imagine what it must be like living in a place where this threat is constant and tangibly real...
- cool-RR 15y ago
  I wouldn't really describe it as a "constant and tangibly real" fear. Most Israelis will never see a terror attack in their lives. I can say that I spent the 25 years of my life in Israel without seeing anything like a terror attack, or gunshots or anything. It's just a bunch of hype.
  - iskander 15y ago
    > I can say that I spent the 25 years of my life in Israel without seeing anything like a terror attack, or gunshots or anything. ...but how? Did you never spend significant time in Jerusalem (before they finished the separation wall)? I only spent a total of a few months in Jerusalem and saw one suicide bombing and was a few blocks from a shooting. Have you never been to the west bank? One of the two times I went to Hebron I saw soldiers shooting at...who knows? But they were shooting. If you live near the northern border or near Gaza you must have been exposed to rocket attacks at some point. The only way I can imagine you don't encounter violence over 25 years is if you live in a safe area and don't venture out much. Still, you must have friends or family who are exposed to violence. I find it incredible that you think it's just 'hype'.
  - nyellin 15y ago
    Fellow Israeli here. I wouldn't call it "a bunch of hype," but I agree that most of us don't live in fear. I object to the word "hype", as those that have experienced terror attacks don't forget them. The fear isn't exaggerated, but the frequency is.
  - idan 15y ago
    Wanted to clarify. Israel is a very safe place on the whole. You are far more likely to die here as a result of the horrifically bad drivers than of any other cause. Day-to-day, it is not "walking around on alert" as various (ex?)military members have related above. What exists is a higher level of awareness, certainly for those who have ever been in close proximity to some… event—but also for society at large. I don't know what it's like in the UK, but I don't think there are bored underpaid security guards at the entrance to every mall with handheld metal detectors and an "open your bag, sir." this kind of casually intrusive security is simply unknown in the US outside of airports, at least until the DHS collectively lose their shit over a plot to bomb a mall using chewing gum, bleach, and a tweezers. So yes, there is hype, particularly if your information is gleaned secondhand from the media; they only show pictures of things here when they're on fire. That doesn't conflict with my (personal, biased) experience that society here has a deeply-ingrained sense of "be on the lookout." I certainly felt it in Tel Aviv during the wave of bombings around 2000/2001 and intifada II, and I saw firsthand how America tried to come to grips with this unfamiliar sensation in New York during 9/11.
    - rooshdi 15y ago
      I don't want to bring politics into this discussion, but as a Palestinian American, I certainly experienced the effects of Israeli paranoia during my visit around the second Intifada. IDF checkpoint interrogations became standard practice and inconvenience and intimidation became a normality. Thankfully, things have improved since that time period, but it's certainly a bleak reminder of the consequences of security. My hope is peace can eventually find it's way through, and both the Israelis and Palestinians can continue negotiations and finally live together in a civil humane society without constant fear and intimidation, one equal to all.
      - idan 15y ago
        Plus fucking one.
- rdl 15y ago
  I had a coworker fly from Baghdad, Iraq to downtown London on 7-5-05. He seemed kind of pissed about the whole thing (although I don't think he was on any of the vehicles). I almost went to Thailand just before their little redshirt coup thing on vacation from Iraq, too. Fortunately I couldn't get a flight, so I watched it on TV instead a few days later.
mattdeboard 15y ago
I've spent a considerable amount of time in Iraq in the US military; it's very tough to explain to people how much energy I now spend assessing threats presented by very mundane acts/situations. It's exhausting. I constantly have to remind myself that I'm not in danger. So tired of it. I feel sometimes that if I were still in a combat zone or a constantly embattled place like Israel that energy wouldn't be expended for nought.
- lloeki 15y ago
  Are you implying that somehow the vacuity of this acquired reflex in a reasonably safe place and its associated tiredness makes you wish to go to a dangerous place, if only to make that reflex have a purpose, a meaning?
  - mattdeboard 15y ago
    Yeah something like that
- roqetman 15y ago
  It does wear off after a few years; at least it did for me. Now I can hear a car backfire without dropping to the ground (yes I did this once and felt pretty foolish). But I still freeze for a moment when I hear a distant firework or other load bang, and my mind immediately tries to identify the "weapon" sound signature. But I still feel uncomfortable in large crowds, and always scan for an easy exit.
  - andrewem 15y ago
    I'm no expert, but both roquetman's and mattdeboard's stories sound like they might be Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (symptoms include "Having an exaggerated response to things that startle you", and "Feeling more aware (hypervigilance)") [0], for which treatment exists that's apparently effective at least for some people. Continuing the recent suicide-prevention theme on HN, "Going through a trauma may increase a person's suicide risk. Studies also show that suicide risk is higher in persons with PTSD." [1] So please, if people find themselves having symptoms like this, consider getting help. [0] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001923/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001923/ [1] http://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/pages/ptsd-suicide.asp http://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/pages/ptsd-suicide.asp
dailo10 15y ago
Yes, but this is the crux of his reaction: There was something about the idea that I might have died in a grey train full of grey commuters, having not truly lived, that I could not stand.

by idan 15y ago

swombat 15y ago

I can't even imagine what it must be like living in a place where this threat is constant and tangibly real...

cool-RR 15y ago
I wouldn't really describe it as a "constant and tangibly real" fear. Most Israelis will never see a terror attack in their lives. I can say that I spent the 25 years of my life in Israel without seeing anything like a terror attack, or gunshots or anything. It's just a bunch of hype.
- iskander 15y ago
  > I can say that I spent the 25 years of my life in Israel without seeing anything like a terror attack, or gunshots or anything. ...but how? Did you never spend significant time in Jerusalem (before they finished the separation wall)? I only spent a total of a few months in Jerusalem and saw one suicide bombing and was a few blocks from a shooting. Have you never been to the west bank? One of the two times I went to Hebron I saw soldiers shooting at...who knows? But they were shooting. If you live near the northern border or near Gaza you must have been exposed to rocket attacks at some point. The only way I can imagine you don't encounter violence over 25 years is if you live in a safe area and don't venture out much. Still, you must have friends or family who are exposed to violence. I find it incredible that you think it's just 'hype'.
- nyellin 15y ago
  Fellow Israeli here. I wouldn't call it "a bunch of hype," but I agree that most of us don't live in fear. I object to the word "hype", as those that have experienced terror attacks don't forget them. The fear isn't exaggerated, but the frequency is.
- idan 15y ago
  Wanted to clarify. Israel is a very safe place on the whole. You are far more likely to die here as a result of the horrifically bad drivers than of any other cause. Day-to-day, it is not "walking around on alert" as various (ex?)military members have related above. What exists is a higher level of awareness, certainly for those who have ever been in close proximity to some… event—but also for society at large. I don't know what it's like in the UK, but I don't think there are bored underpaid security guards at the entrance to every mall with handheld metal detectors and an "open your bag, sir." this kind of casually intrusive security is simply unknown in the US outside of airports, at least until the DHS collectively lose their shit over a plot to bomb a mall using chewing gum, bleach, and a tweezers. So yes, there is hype, particularly if your information is gleaned secondhand from the media; they only show pictures of things here when they're on fire. That doesn't conflict with my (personal, biased) experience that society here has a deeply-ingrained sense of "be on the lookout." I certainly felt it in Tel Aviv during the wave of bombings around 2000/2001 and intifada II, and I saw firsthand how America tried to come to grips with this unfamiliar sensation in New York during 9/11.
  - rooshdi 15y ago
    I don't want to bring politics into this discussion, but as a Palestinian American, I certainly experienced the effects of Israeli paranoia during my visit around the second Intifada. IDF checkpoint interrogations became standard practice and inconvenience and intimidation became a normality. Thankfully, things have improved since that time period, but it's certainly a bleak reminder of the consequences of security. My hope is peace can eventually find it's way through, and both the Israelis and Palestinians can continue negotiations and finally live together in a civil humane society without constant fear and intimidation, one equal to all.
    - idan 15y ago
      Plus fucking one.
rdl 15y ago
I had a coworker fly from Baghdad, Iraq to downtown London on 7-5-05. He seemed kind of pissed about the whole thing (although I don't think he was on any of the vehicles). I almost went to Thailand just before their little redshirt coup thing on vacation from Iraq, too. Fortunately I couldn't get a flight, so I watched it on TV instead a few days later.

mattdeboard 15y ago

I've spent a considerable amount of time in Iraq in the US military; it's very tough to explain to people how much energy I now spend assessing threats presented by very mundane acts/situations. It's exhausting. I constantly have to remind myself that I'm not in danger. So tired of it. I feel sometimes that if I were still in a combat zone or a constantly embattled place like Israel that energy wouldn't be expended for nought.

lloeki 15y ago
Are you implying that somehow the vacuity of this acquired reflex in a reasonably safe place and its associated tiredness makes you wish to go to a dangerous place, if only to make that reflex have a purpose, a meaning?
- mattdeboard 15y ago
  Yeah something like that
roqetman 15y ago
It does wear off after a few years; at least it did for me. Now I can hear a car backfire without dropping to the ground (yes I did this once and felt pretty foolish). But I still freeze for a moment when I hear a distant firework or other load bang, and my mind immediately tries to identify the "weapon" sound signature. But I still feel uncomfortable in large crowds, and always scan for an easy exit.
- andrewem 15y ago
  I'm no expert, but both roquetman's and mattdeboard's stories sound like they might be Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (symptoms include "Having an exaggerated response to things that startle you", and "Feeling more aware (hypervigilance)") [0], for which treatment exists that's apparently effective at least for some people. Continuing the recent suicide-prevention theme on HN, "Going through a trauma may increase a person's suicide risk. Studies also show that suicide risk is higher in persons with PTSD." [1] So please, if people find themselves having symptoms like this, consider getting help. [0] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001923/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001923/ [1] http://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/pages/ptsd-suicide.asp http://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/pages/ptsd-suicide.asp

dailo10 15y ago

Yes, but this is the crux of his reaction: There was something about the idea that I might have died in a grey train full of grey commuters, having not truly lived, that I could not stand.