4 ms·

As far as I can tell you’re the only one mired in a semantic debate. The list of signs of a cult above is a useful rubric for determining if an organizational

As far as I can tell you’re the only one mired in a semantic debate. The list of signs of a cult above is a useful rubric for determining if an organizational is harmful. And as others have noted the technical term “high-demand organization” has grown specifically to leave behind the religious implications of “cult”, though language moves slow and many will still use that term day to day. Are there any organizations you’ve been involved in that have been called a cult?

andrewla 4y ago
Well, I wouldn't say "mired", but I do agree that I'm the only one directly addressing the distinction between substance and semantics. I do not agree about the list. That list is there to win semantic arguments about whether something is a cult or not. Nothing to do with harm; you can argue that some of the criteria, like "shame cycles" are harmful in and of themselves, but most are harmless attributes. Apply it to a kid's soccer team to see this. I have never been involved in a cult. But sure, calling things a cult is cheap. I'm Jewish, I have been a Ron Paul supporter, card-carrying ACLU member. All of those things have been called cults.
- drewbeck 4y ago
  No, the list is diagnostic, in the same way that lists of behaviors and experiences that may indicate depression, bpd, or any psychological state/disorder is. The list is "you may be in a cult if", not "lol it's totally a cult nerd, look at this definitive list" I agree that people use "cult" too quickly. But that doesn't mean that a list like that isn't helpful. Plus if your kids soccer team "delegitimizes former members", "is paranoid about the outside world" and "relies on shame cycles" then … big oof! These are not typical behaviors. (Part of your argument I think is that these ideas are subjective. If you're in a jewish group that has a meeting about rising anti-semitism are you "paranoid". Hell no. But could someone call you "paranoid"? Sure. Working through that subjectiveness is actually where the meat of this issue is.)
  - andrewla 4y ago
    Well, obviously don't get me started on psychological classification and diagnostic criteria. Those only work because a trained practicing psychologist can tell the difference between the ordinary form and the pathological form of those criteria (subjectively and through experience); in the hands of a layman they might as well be a recipe for hypochondria. The real question someone is asking when they ask "am I in a cult" is not about whether you can mark your religion as "cult" on your taxes. The question is "am I in danger of harm", and it is better to ask yourself that question directly -- is there sexual or physical abuse among the members; is there a financial obligation; does the group engage in abusive punishments or penalties. If it does those things who cares if it's a cult or not; get the hell out! For the soccer team analogy a simple colloquial reading is fine -- "delegitimizes former members" : "quitters" -- "paranoid about the outside world" : "refs are crooked" -- "shame cycles" : well, that one is pretty bad, but it is not unusual for people to get significant personal gratification and the respect of your teammates for excellent performance, and to feel shame for failures. Sure, subjectivity is part of it too. But if you're looking for diagnostic criteria in that list, you have to implicitly add "in a cult-like manner" to all of the criteria, and rely on the common subjective understanding of what a "cult" is to determine if they apply.

andrewla 4y ago

Well, I wouldn't say "mired", but I do agree that I'm the only one directly addressing the distinction between substance and semantics. I do not agree about the list. That list is there to win semantic arguments about whether something is a cult or not. Nothing to do with harm; you can argue that some of the criteria, like "shame cycles" are harmful in and of themselves, but most are harmless attributes. Apply it to a kid's soccer team to see this. I have never been involved in a cult. But sure, calling things a cult is cheap. I'm Jewish, I have been a Ron Paul supporter, card-carrying ACLU member. All of those things have been called cults.

drewbeck 4y ago
No, the list is diagnostic, in the same way that lists of behaviors and experiences that may indicate depression, bpd, or any psychological state/disorder is. The list is "you may be in a cult if", not "lol it's totally a cult nerd, look at this definitive list" I agree that people use "cult" too quickly. But that doesn't mean that a list like that isn't helpful. Plus if your kids soccer team "delegitimizes former members", "is paranoid about the outside world" and "relies on shame cycles" then … big oof! These are not typical behaviors. (Part of your argument I think is that these ideas are subjective. If you're in a jewish group that has a meeting about rising anti-semitism are you "paranoid". Hell no. But could someone call you "paranoid"? Sure. Working through that subjectiveness is actually where the meat of this issue is.)
- andrewla 4y ago
  Well, obviously don't get me started on psychological classification and diagnostic criteria. Those only work because a trained practicing psychologist can tell the difference between the ordinary form and the pathological form of those criteria (subjectively and through experience); in the hands of a layman they might as well be a recipe for hypochondria. The real question someone is asking when they ask "am I in a cult" is not about whether you can mark your religion as "cult" on your taxes. The question is "am I in danger of harm", and it is better to ask yourself that question directly -- is there sexual or physical abuse among the members; is there a financial obligation; does the group engage in abusive punishments or penalties. If it does those things who cares if it's a cult or not; get the hell out! For the soccer team analogy a simple colloquial reading is fine -- "delegitimizes former members" : "quitters" -- "paranoid about the outside world" : "refs are crooked" -- "shame cycles" : well, that one is pretty bad, but it is not unusual for people to get significant personal gratification and the respect of your teammates for excellent performance, and to feel shame for failures. Sure, subjectivity is part of it too. But if you're looking for diagnostic criteria in that list, you have to implicitly add "in a cult-like manner" to all of the criteria, and rely on the common subjective understanding of what a "cult" is to determine if they apply.