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A was an atheist most of my life but now see it differently. See it as a kind of philosophy embedded in a story (mythology) People go to church once a week to

by alfor 4y ago

A was an atheist most of my life but now see it differently. See it as a kind of philosophy embedded in a story (mythology) People go to church once a week to try to align themselves with the most good they can. They take a hard look at their failing ask forgiveness and try to do better next week. Contrast that with people than never try to do that, never have a time to reflect on deeper things, have no community that tried to help each other to do good. All culture sit on a religious traditions, by throwing it away we don’t know what we loose, we are like the doctor of the 1800 that removed organs they didn’t know what they did. As our culture go further and further away from christianity it is slowly disintegrating. We can no longer trust people and institutions, families don’t last, socials connections are eroding. I don’t think it can go on much longer until it crumble. Now is there a ’God’ up there, I don’t know. But that’s not were the value of those things lie.

halpmeh 4y ago
I'm sure some people use religion in the way you describe, but there is tautological induction in religion that makes it cult-like. For instance, you say people go to church to reflect on how they can do better at being "good" next week. Well what is "good"? "Good" is what the church defines, of course. And unsurprisingly "good" comes to mean something like oppressing those with different view points and spreading all the "goodness" of the church to others. This type of organization has a pathological tendency to spread via coercion and oppression, and that makes it cult-like.
- alfor 4y ago
  Good mostly as you define it yourself. That’s why they say don’t judge others, that people will be judge by "God" There is also norms anchored in long tradition, like the commandments. But yes, there is also a tendency to try to explain everything and reject what doesn’t fit in the explanation ex: homosexuality.
jondeval 4y ago
Good luck to you. This is a great comment. > See it as a kind of philosophy embedded in a story (mythology) This is tricky. You are sort of making an acknowledgement of the power of Christianity to shape culture without requiring a firm belief in its supernatural truth claims. I just don't think you can recover the one without the other. The fruits of a Christian culture were grown over many generations by people who knew that God is real and present in their lives. I for one find it quite difficult to sacrifice for a mere symbol or just a good long term cultural outcome. > Now is there a ’God’ up there, I don’t know? Why are you skeptical? As an atheist (or in between atheist) who can present such a clear eyed and charitable view of Christian communities, where do your current doubts stem from?
- alfor 4y ago
  I feel that I am on path of some sort, was raised Catholic (but we didn’t really believe: Québec, one on the most catholic place that become one of the most atheist in a very short time) I was mostly scientific atheist nihilist, searching for meaning. I discovered to my surprise the logic, usefulness and truth in our stories through Jordan Peterson biblical lectures. But now through the explanation of Jonathan Pageau and some reading of the bible it seem I can go a bit further. I am trying to communicate what I now understand to other fellow atheist that there is value in our foundational stories, I see that it’s the foundation of our culture and that as christianity fade our culture is crumbling. I don’t know exactly what I believe at this point, I am trying to move forward, use the bible as a guide, it’s hard to communicate my way of seeing to atheist or religious people. Saying that those are story is a reduction of the truth. I don’t have better words to communicate exactly how I think. I can see the same pattern with scientific thinking, we have a model (plants use sun human eat things) and we confuse our mental model for reality until we discover that our pattern is reductive (we use UV to make vitamin D and infrared to keep inflammation under control (recent discovery)) So I think those who believe completely are also immunized against a kind of scientific totalitarianism, the idea that we know completely, it’s very seductive as it save us to expend mental energy. I am also seeing more way to understand the bible, the catholic way: simplified, don’t read the bible, we will do it for you, protestant: communities with each their own flavor but against a central authority and now orthodox who seem to see it more as a patterns, as path to emulate, to become god ourself or at least try, than actual physical truth, truth on another level. What do you think, what is your perspective?
  - jondeval 4y ago
    I'm just an ordinary Catholic. My story isn't particularly exciting. I understand the view you are articulating with the phrase 'reduction of truth'. I can't be 100% sure from such a short description but I think that view aligns closely to my own. More and more I find my perspective tracking with these guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAcZaBhEuE0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAcZaBhEuE0 As you wrestle with the deeper questions about God and Christianity, you mine as well wrestle with the most well educated proponents of that view. The Dominican Friars who put those videos together certainly check that box. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

by alfor 4y ago

halpmeh 4y ago

I'm sure some people use religion in the way you describe, but there is tautological induction in religion that makes it cult-like. For instance, you say people go to church to reflect on how they can do better at being "good" next week. Well what is "good"? "Good" is what the church defines, of course. And unsurprisingly "good" comes to mean something like oppressing those with different view points and spreading all the "goodness" of the church to others. This type of organization has a pathological tendency to spread via coercion and oppression, and that makes it cult-like.

alfor 4y ago
Good mostly as you define it yourself. That’s why they say don’t judge others, that people will be judge by "God" There is also norms anchored in long tradition, like the commandments. But yes, there is also a tendency to try to explain everything and reject what doesn’t fit in the explanation ex: homosexuality.

jondeval 4y ago

Good luck to you. This is a great comment. > See it as a kind of philosophy embedded in a story (mythology) This is tricky. You are sort of making an acknowledgement of the power of Christianity to shape culture without requiring a firm belief in its supernatural truth claims. I just don't think you can recover the one without the other. The fruits of a Christian culture were grown over many generations by people who knew that God is real and present in their lives. I for one find it quite difficult to sacrifice for a mere symbol or just a good long term cultural outcome. > Now is there a ’God’ up there, I don’t know? Why are you skeptical? As an atheist (or in between atheist) who can present such a clear eyed and charitable view of Christian communities, where do your current doubts stem from?

alfor 4y ago
I feel that I am on path of some sort, was raised Catholic (but we didn’t really believe: Québec, one on the most catholic place that become one of the most atheist in a very short time) I was mostly scientific atheist nihilist, searching for meaning. I discovered to my surprise the logic, usefulness and truth in our stories through Jordan Peterson biblical lectures. But now through the explanation of Jonathan Pageau and some reading of the bible it seem I can go a bit further. I am trying to communicate what I now understand to other fellow atheist that there is value in our foundational stories, I see that it’s the foundation of our culture and that as christianity fade our culture is crumbling. I don’t know exactly what I believe at this point, I am trying to move forward, use the bible as a guide, it’s hard to communicate my way of seeing to atheist or religious people. Saying that those are story is a reduction of the truth. I don’t have better words to communicate exactly how I think. I can see the same pattern with scientific thinking, we have a model (plants use sun human eat things) and we confuse our mental model for reality until we discover that our pattern is reductive (we use UV to make vitamin D and infrared to keep inflammation under control (recent discovery)) So I think those who believe completely are also immunized against a kind of scientific totalitarianism, the idea that we know completely, it’s very seductive as it save us to expend mental energy. I am also seeing more way to understand the bible, the catholic way: simplified, don’t read the bible, we will do it for you, protestant: communities with each their own flavor but against a central authority and now orthodox who seem to see it more as a patterns, as path to emulate, to become god ourself or at least try, than actual physical truth, truth on another level. What do you think, what is your perspective?
- jondeval 4y ago
  I'm just an ordinary Catholic. My story isn't particularly exciting. I understand the view you are articulating with the phrase 'reduction of truth'. I can't be 100% sure from such a short description but I think that view aligns closely to my own. More and more I find my perspective tracking with these guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAcZaBhEuE0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAcZaBhEuE0 As you wrestle with the deeper questions about God and Christianity, you mine as well wrestle with the most well educated proponents of that view. The Dominican Friars who put those videos together certainly check that box. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!