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I don't think the point is that everything is a cult. Rather, the point is for you to reflect if maybe you are part of something cult-like. And no, I don't thin

I don't think the point is that everything is a cult. Rather, the point is for you to reflect if maybe you are part of something cult-like. And no, I don't think HN is a cult or most startups are a cult. Yesterday was Sunday. I have a kid, meaning I have little time and I'm frequently tired. I was driving around town and I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass. And it got me thinking. These people spend multiple hours every Sunday going to worship something they have no evidence exists. The only reason most of them do so is because their parents told them this thing exists. And their parents only do so because they were told my their parents, etc. And this practice has continued on for thousands of years, all because people regard a particular ancient book as true, despite being able to articulate why. And there I was, tired and longing for just a few hours of solace. I wouldn't call myself an atheist. But blindly following a ceremony your entire life, indoctrinating your kids, etc. definitely feels cult-like to me. Maybe not the worst cult ever, though.

blue039 4y ago
> And no, I don't think HN is a cult or most startups are a cult. On the contrary in the case of HN it fits most criteria perfectly 1. Elevation of someone to diety status (Graham, <startup founder of the week>) 2. Shunning outsiders (mocking redditors, another cult) 3. Enforced group think through shame rituals ("As a..." response posts, downvoting). 4. Belief that the HN system is superior to all other systems HN, like nearly ALL modern startups, would qualify as cults. Remove the downvoting enforced groupthink and maybe I'd be inclined to agree with you. Until then, I refuse to. Upvote/downvote culture enforces the exact behavior required to punish and shame people with differing opinions into conforming. It's a sinister assault on human psychology and all sites doing this (HN included) should feel deeply ashamed. For being an alleged "libertarian/liberal" oasis in the middle of a barren internet desert, this place is far more like Jonestown than, for example, the philosophy department of a top 10 university despite seemingly every poster here believing truly they have 9e40 IQ and are one self help book away from unlocking literal gigabrain magic.
- halpmeh 4y ago
  You're conflating the HN "hivemind" with the individual members. I doubt most HN users check all 4 boxes. E.g. I read Reddit and don't elevate startup founders to deity status. I'm also not ostracized for these views.
  - blue039 4y ago
    Sure, and the downvotes of this criticism make it obvious the hivemind thinks it's free. A classic trope of cults. They are the free ones and everyone outside is not. Hilarious, really. It goes along with the almost metastatic, terminal, pseudo-intellectualism this site is known for.
    - halpmeh 4y ago
      Yes, some individuals out of the dozens who have read your comment chose to downvote. Just as other chose not to vote at all. Some may have even upvoted. Doesn’t that kind of prove HN is not a cult? The group is comprised of individual members all acting independently.
    - vagrantJin 4y ago
      Most people don't vote. But I agree that downvoting can be an emotionally charged action - completely devoid of reason. I tend enjoy downvotes that have no reason because they validate a touched nerve, but some will give a reason as to why they downvoted and open a dialogue. Thats a gold feature of HN I think.
alfor 4y ago
A was an atheist most of my life but now see it differently. See it as a kind of philosophy embedded in a story (mythology) People go to church once a week to try to align themselves with the most good they can. They take a hard look at their failing ask forgiveness and try to do better next week. Contrast that with people than never try to do that, never have a time to reflect on deeper things, have no community that tried to help each other to do good. All culture sit on a religious traditions, by throwing it away we don’t know what we loose, we are like the doctor of the 1800 that removed organs they didn’t know what they did. As our culture go further and further away from christianity it is slowly disintegrating. We can no longer trust people and institutions, families don’t last, socials connections are eroding. I don’t think it can go on much longer until it crumble. Now is there a ’God’ up there, I don’t know. But that’s not were the value of those things lie.
- halpmeh 4y ago
  I'm sure some people use religion in the way you describe, but there is tautological induction in religion that makes it cult-like. For instance, you say people go to church to reflect on how they can do better at being "good" next week. Well what is "good"? "Good" is what the church defines, of course. And unsurprisingly "good" comes to mean something like oppressing those with different view points and spreading all the "goodness" of the church to others. This type of organization has a pathological tendency to spread via coercion and oppression, and that makes it cult-like.
  - alfor 4y ago
    Good mostly as you define it yourself. That’s why they say don’t judge others, that people will be judge by "God" There is also norms anchored in long tradition, like the commandments. But yes, there is also a tendency to try to explain everything and reject what doesn’t fit in the explanation ex: homosexuality.
- jondeval 4y ago
  Good luck to you. This is a great comment. > See it as a kind of philosophy embedded in a story (mythology) This is tricky. You are sort of making an acknowledgement of the power of Christianity to shape culture without requiring a firm belief in its supernatural truth claims. I just don't think you can recover the one without the other. The fruits of a Christian culture were grown over many generations by people who knew that God is real and present in their lives. I for one find it quite difficult to sacrifice for a mere symbol or just a good long term cultural outcome. > Now is there a ’God’ up there, I don’t know? Why are you skeptical? As an atheist (or in between atheist) who can present such a clear eyed and charitable view of Christian communities, where do your current doubts stem from?
compiler-guy 4y ago
People attend church for a wide variety of reasons and it’s good not to over simplify them. Plenty of people with widely varying amounts of belief still attend for a wide variety of reasons. Some attend to keep peace in their families. Or because it is a social group with which they have a long history. Or because the emotional support of a pastor helps them. Some attend because it would break their parent’s hearts if they didn’t. For most religions, one can be crazily all in, or just showing up for the donuts afterward. You can’t tell just by looking. One might complain about how that is inauthentic or just putting on a show, but even that is too simple. Human motivation is deeply complex and oversimplifying it doesn’t do justice to our humanity.
- halpmeh 4y ago
  All the reasons you listed sound like a cult. “I can’t leave the cult, my family will disown me.” “I can’t leave the cult, everyone I know and care about is in the cult.” “I can’t leave the cult. I need the leaders emotional support.”
  - kcplate 4y ago
    I think you are both broadening the definition to the same level as the original blog author and also narrowing what the commenter said to make any religious community a cult, I think that fails to consider hat the common understanding of what a cult is. So things like: “Keeping peace in the family” != “my family will disown me”. “I am part of a community” != “Everyone I know and are about is in a cult”. “My pastor provides me counseling” != “I need the leaders emotional support” It
    - halpmeh 4y ago
      I disagree. I may have used hyperbole, but those were then reasons listed: my family wants me in the religion, my social graph is based around the religion and its rituals, my emotional support comes from the religion. That’s cult-like. I think the main reason we don’t considered religions a cult has nothing to do with the behavior or the participants or their reasons for attendance. We generally consider cults to be small, which is incongruous with mainstream religion.
jondeval 4y ago
> But blindly following a ceremony your entire life ... I mean this in the most honest and genuine way. What if you are simply incorrect in your perception of why a Catholic would attend mass? I bet if you found a knowledgable Christian and asked him why he attends you would find a very different set of reasons. > I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass. Maybe I was one of them. In fact I go every Sunday without exception. But I don't recognize myself or my reasons in your characterization of why people go.
- halpmeh 4y ago
geye1234 4y ago
As a sibling poster says, why don't you ask them? I converted to Catholicism after weighing it up against pantheism, atheism, and other forms of Christianity. I think I have very good reasons for believing in God's existence with a very high degree of confidence (not just "look what I experienced" reasons, but philosophical arguments that appear sound to me). And I teach my kids about it because if I let them "make up their own mind", they'll fall for whatever persuasive argument they first encounter. Of course I want them not to believe anything "blindly", and to make sure they test the reasons they're given for things, and to think through the arguments logically, etc.
- halpmeh 4y ago
  This seems like mental gymnastics to justify joining a cult. You realize that your kids only know what you tell them. It takes a very long time for them to even understand analytic thought. What you’ve said is essentially “I chose to join a cult and indoctrinate my kids from birth so they don’t believe anything else, even when presented a compelling reason to do so.” If you really want them to make up their own mind, give them the tools to evaluate ideas, don’t stack the deck because you’re afraid they’ll come to a different conclusion than you. Of course you won’t do that because you believe in God, so you’re afraid that they won’t believe in God unless indoctrinated as a child. That’s what you meant by “if I let them "make up their own mind", they'll fall for whatever persuasive argument they first encounter.” Right? The alternative to believing in God is not believing. So you’re afraid they won’t believe in God if presented with a compelling argument unless they’ve already been indoctrinated.

blue039 4y ago

> And no, I don't think HN is a cult or most startups are a cult. On the contrary in the case of HN it fits most criteria perfectly 1. Elevation of someone to diety status (Graham, <startup founder of the week>) 2. Shunning outsiders (mocking redditors, another cult) 3. Enforced group think through shame rituals ("As a..." response posts, downvoting). 4. Belief that the HN system is superior to all other systems HN, like nearly ALL modern startups, would qualify as cults. Remove the downvoting enforced groupthink and maybe I'd be inclined to agree with you. Until then, I refuse to. Upvote/downvote culture enforces the exact behavior required to punish and shame people with differing opinions into conforming. It's a sinister assault on human psychology and all sites doing this (HN included) should feel deeply ashamed. For being an alleged "libertarian/liberal" oasis in the middle of a barren internet desert, this place is far more like Jonestown than, for example, the philosophy department of a top 10 university despite seemingly every poster here believing truly they have 9e40 IQ and are one self help book away from unlocking literal gigabrain magic.

halpmeh 4y ago
You're conflating the HN "hivemind" with the individual members. I doubt most HN users check all 4 boxes. E.g. I read Reddit and don't elevate startup founders to deity status. I'm also not ostracized for these views.
- blue039 4y ago
  Sure, and the downvotes of this criticism make it obvious the hivemind thinks it's free. A classic trope of cults. They are the free ones and everyone outside is not. Hilarious, really. It goes along with the almost metastatic, terminal, pseudo-intellectualism this site is known for.
  - halpmeh 4y ago
    Yes, some individuals out of the dozens who have read your comment chose to downvote. Just as other chose not to vote at all. Some may have even upvoted. Doesn’t that kind of prove HN is not a cult? The group is comprised of individual members all acting independently.
  - vagrantJin 4y ago
    Most people don't vote. But I agree that downvoting can be an emotionally charged action - completely devoid of reason. I tend enjoy downvotes that have no reason because they validate a touched nerve, but some will give a reason as to why they downvoted and open a dialogue. Thats a gold feature of HN I think.

alfor 4y ago

A was an atheist most of my life but now see it differently. See it as a kind of philosophy embedded in a story (mythology) People go to church once a week to try to align themselves with the most good they can. They take a hard look at their failing ask forgiveness and try to do better next week. Contrast that with people than never try to do that, never have a time to reflect on deeper things, have no community that tried to help each other to do good. All culture sit on a religious traditions, by throwing it away we don’t know what we loose, we are like the doctor of the 1800 that removed organs they didn’t know what they did. As our culture go further and further away from christianity it is slowly disintegrating. We can no longer trust people and institutions, families don’t last, socials connections are eroding. I don’t think it can go on much longer until it crumble. Now is there a ’God’ up there, I don’t know. But that’s not were the value of those things lie.

halpmeh 4y ago
I'm sure some people use religion in the way you describe, but there is tautological induction in religion that makes it cult-like. For instance, you say people go to church to reflect on how they can do better at being "good" next week. Well what is "good"? "Good" is what the church defines, of course. And unsurprisingly "good" comes to mean something like oppressing those with different view points and spreading all the "goodness" of the church to others. This type of organization has a pathological tendency to spread via coercion and oppression, and that makes it cult-like.
- alfor 4y ago
  Good mostly as you define it yourself. That’s why they say don’t judge others, that people will be judge by "God" There is also norms anchored in long tradition, like the commandments. But yes, there is also a tendency to try to explain everything and reject what doesn’t fit in the explanation ex: homosexuality.
jondeval 4y ago
Good luck to you. This is a great comment. > See it as a kind of philosophy embedded in a story (mythology) This is tricky. You are sort of making an acknowledgement of the power of Christianity to shape culture without requiring a firm belief in its supernatural truth claims. I just don't think you can recover the one without the other. The fruits of a Christian culture were grown over many generations by people who knew that God is real and present in their lives. I for one find it quite difficult to sacrifice for a mere symbol or just a good long term cultural outcome. > Now is there a ’God’ up there, I don’t know? Why are you skeptical? As an atheist (or in between atheist) who can present such a clear eyed and charitable view of Christian communities, where do your current doubts stem from?

compiler-guy 4y ago

People attend church for a wide variety of reasons and it’s good not to over simplify them. Plenty of people with widely varying amounts of belief still attend for a wide variety of reasons. Some attend to keep peace in their families. Or because it is a social group with which they have a long history. Or because the emotional support of a pastor helps them. Some attend because it would break their parent’s hearts if they didn’t. For most religions, one can be crazily all in, or just showing up for the donuts afterward. You can’t tell just by looking. One might complain about how that is inauthentic or just putting on a show, but even that is too simple. Human motivation is deeply complex and oversimplifying it doesn’t do justice to our humanity.

halpmeh 4y ago
All the reasons you listed sound like a cult. “I can’t leave the cult, my family will disown me.” “I can’t leave the cult, everyone I know and care about is in the cult.” “I can’t leave the cult. I need the leaders emotional support.”
- kcplate 4y ago
  I think you are both broadening the definition to the same level as the original blog author and also narrowing what the commenter said to make any religious community a cult, I think that fails to consider hat the common understanding of what a cult is. So things like: “Keeping peace in the family” != “my family will disown me”. “I am part of a community” != “Everyone I know and are about is in a cult”. “My pastor provides me counseling” != “I need the leaders emotional support” It
  - halpmeh 4y ago
    I disagree. I may have used hyperbole, but those were then reasons listed: my family wants me in the religion, my social graph is based around the religion and its rituals, my emotional support comes from the religion. That’s cult-like. I think the main reason we don’t considered religions a cult has nothing to do with the behavior or the participants or their reasons for attendance. We generally consider cults to be small, which is incongruous with mainstream religion.

jondeval 4y ago

> But blindly following a ceremony your entire life ... I mean this in the most honest and genuine way. What if you are simply incorrect in your perception of why a Catholic would attend mass? I bet if you found a knowledgable Christian and asked him why he attends you would find a very different set of reasons. > I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass. Maybe I was one of them. In fact I go every Sunday without exception. But I don't recognize myself or my reasons in your characterization of why people go.

halpmeh 4y ago

geye1234 4y ago

As a sibling poster says, why don't you ask them? I converted to Catholicism after weighing it up against pantheism, atheism, and other forms of Christianity. I think I have very good reasons for believing in God's existence with a very high degree of confidence (not just "look what I experienced" reasons, but philosophical arguments that appear sound to me). And I teach my kids about it because if I let them "make up their own mind", they'll fall for whatever persuasive argument they first encounter. Of course I want them not to believe anything "blindly", and to make sure they test the reasons they're given for things, and to think through the arguments logically, etc.

halpmeh 4y ago
This seems like mental gymnastics to justify joining a cult. You realize that your kids only know what you tell them. It takes a very long time for them to even understand analytic thought. What you’ve said is essentially “I chose to join a cult and indoctrinate my kids from birth so they don’t believe anything else, even when presented a compelling reason to do so.” If you really want them to make up their own mind, give them the tools to evaluate ideas, don’t stack the deck because you’re afraid they’ll come to a different conclusion than you. Of course you won’t do that because you believe in God, so you’re afraid that they won’t believe in God unless indoctrinated as a child. That’s what you meant by “if I let them "make up their own mind", they'll fall for whatever persuasive argument they first encounter.” Right? The alternative to believing in God is not believing. So you’re afraid they won’t believe in God if presented with a compelling argument unless they’ve already been indoctrinated.