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OK, I’ve always considered these types of questions as disingenuous. But, enough people seem to disagree. So, at risk of stating the obvious: - Avoid risk of

OK, I’ve always considered these types of questions as disingenuous. But, enough people seem to disagree. So, at risk of stating the obvious: - Avoid risk of accidental/malicious deplatforming - Personal control of all data, avoiding incompetence/malfeasance presenting faulty data - Deploying enhanced presentation of existing functionality and data cannot be restricted - Reuse of existing functionality in private environments can’t be prevented - Guarantee that results based on trees of publicly committed data are themselves valid, without personally traversing the tree and recomputing results - … As I write this, I’m struggling to comprehend how these benefits aren’t obvious. Maybe it’s because I’ve been searching for solutions to these problems since the early 90’s for distributed industrial control and monitoring. But seriously, I’m certain lots of developers run into these constraints and are seeking solutions.

pjkundert 4y ago
A specific application I'm working on right now involves using Crypto for direct payments between software Licensees (end users) and the App developer. Presently, there is a high risk of loss of income (see: every small individual Russian or Iranian software developer. Their families are now suffering because their income has been shut off, even though this is a textbook example of "Group Punishment" under the Geneva Convention. If I had decided to send some of my company's income to the Canadian "Freedom Convoy", my family's income would also have also been summarily cut off, without trial or conviction in a court of law). So, like it or not: there are innocent individual who, due to no fault of their own, cannot use "TradFi" -- "DeFi" is their only alternative to achieve an income to care for their families. Using a trivial Ethereum Smart Contract, a single-use Ethereum wallet address is generated for a set of payees (eg. the software author(s) and any number of other license fee recipients) designated to receive a proportion of an Ethereum fee payment. When the payment is received at the designated address -- the software License is generated, and any one of the payees can trigger the "smart contract" executing distribution of the fees to each of the payees' accounts, without being able to change the proportional distribution. None of this is possible under "TradFi". All of it (except for the automatic generation of the License) is possible under Ethereum "DeFi". The entire application (including automatic, atomic generation of the License and distribution of fees) is possible under Holochain. In all honesty -- whenever I hear "Crypto is a solution in search of a problem", I really have trouble not rolling my eyes. Perhaps that's not nice. But seriously; if you're here on HN, I have higher expectations of you. If you're enraged by this; perhaps there may be other forums more appropriate for you? :)
- kristjansson 4y ago
  So … circumventing sanctions?
- Erikun 4y ago
  In my opinion, removing the last paragraph would improve your post immensely. It would be a shame if the post got downvoted to oblivion because of it.
  - pjkundert 4y ago
    I agree. But, my last 30 years of laissez faire has resulted in forums like HN becoming toxic with smug "Crypto is a solution in search of a problem" and "told ya Crypto was all a scam, yer dumb" Bros, yelling low-research insults without anyone pushing back on them... So, I'll leave it. If only the "Eternal September" crowd is allowed to be comfortable here (because we all just "let them have their opinion", as usual), we know what happens.
    - oblio 4y ago
      > So, I'll leave it. If only the "Eternal September" crowd is allowed to be comfortable here (because we all just "let them have their opinion", as usual), we know what happens. Smug-o, not all of us here were born yesterday. This is actually the wrong audience as the concentration of people who have been around the block a while is higher than for the average internet community.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      > yelling low-research insults without anyone pushing back on them... You'd think that in the past 14 years anyone would come up with a well-researched eloquent push back to the multitude of actually well researched eloquent questions that have been frequently asked of crypto enthusiasts. However, all we get back is utter drivel, cultlike devotion, and "just join the discords". The time of of eloquent questions has long passed. There is now a 0.999999999999999999999999 probabilty of anything crypto-related to be a scam, a solution in search of a problem, or a solution that ignores or is oblivious of the real world. It's on crypto enthuiasts to prove that their latest scam du-jour isn't a scam, and is an actual solution.
duped 4y ago
Absolutely none of this is obvious.
- pjkundert 4y ago
  What does "permissionless composability" in DeFi mean, if not this? Sure, its very expensive presently under the Ethereum version of "DeFi". Just like the original motorcar was expensive and fragile, and would break your arm occasionally while you crank-started it. Now, if the cost basis of each "DeFi" transaction is reduced by 5 orders of magnitude (see: Ethereum vs. Holochain) -- what are the potential outcomes of that?
  - duped 4y ago
    I have no idea what "permissionless composability" means. "Permissionless" isn't even a word (without permission or permission-less to be pedantic), and I can think of several overlapping contexts that those words could be meaningful in finance and/or software. The problem is the language you're using sounds like bullshit.
    - pjkundert 4y ago
      Ah, sorry! Mea culpa. Permissioned vs. permissionless systems has been used for so long in my circles that I thought it was a thing... Even "DeFi" systems may not be permissionless, though. It's just that the permissions are visible constraints (ie. in the code) -- not just randos deciding to deplatform you because, you know, "reasons". This is an emerging risk to eg. Ethereum. Now, most "Staking" validators are "OFAC compliant". Does this mean that eventually the Ethereum blockchain will orphan any wallet that contains any Eth that went through the Tornado Cash mixer? What if you decided to compose the Tornado Cash mixer into your payment app, to maintain some anonymity in the face of a repressive regime say throwing gay people off roof tops? Would you consider a permissionless system bad, in that case? Because, OFAC decrees that you are currently a criminal (and guilty without charge or trial) if you do so. What if they decide, next week, that whatever you do presently use is now verboten? So, these concepts aren't "bullshit"; they are a present, serious concern to free peoples around the globe.
habinero 4y ago
None of those are things people care about, though, outside of a tiny niche. Most people find it pretty easy to avoid getting kicked off social media, and even if they do, it doesn't affect them. Likewise, "personal control of data" is meaningless. It's not like you can prevent people from taking the data and doing things with it. I struggle to think of any actual use cases for your last three points that don't boil down to FUD. Blockchain is neat, but it has no real use outside of extracting money from other people involuntarily.
- pjkundert 4y ago
  At this very moment, reasonable people are debating the very real possibility that Twitter could be removed from both the Apple and Google app stores. So, doesn't that astonishing fact deny pretty much every claim in your post? Crazies (the least perjorative term I could think of) that have the power to eject an App used by hundreds of millions of people, from those people's own platform, are dangerous -- to our liberty. And, when people are starving, and are forced to use only their oppressive regime's worthless money: these issues put citizens' lives at risk. So, yes: these are things people care about. Many just don't yet realize they could be the victims of these dangerous bullies forcing these sub-standard tools on them.
  - habinero 4y ago
    No, and saying it's "astonishing" and "it's a threat to liberty" is ridiculous and incredibly overdramatic. It's just an app. Companies rise and fall, it's how it works. We lived just fine before it, we will be just fine after. Something will replace Twitter just like something replaced Friendster and MySpace.

pjkundert 4y ago

A specific application I'm working on right now involves using Crypto for direct payments between software Licensees (end users) and the App developer. Presently, there is a high risk of loss of income (see: every small individual Russian or Iranian software developer. Their families are now suffering because their income has been shut off, even though this is a textbook example of "Group Punishment" under the Geneva Convention. If I had decided to send some of my company's income to the Canadian "Freedom Convoy", my family's income would also have also been summarily cut off, without trial or conviction in a court of law). So, like it or not: there are innocent individual who, due to no fault of their own, cannot use "TradFi" -- "DeFi" is their only alternative to achieve an income to care for their families. Using a trivial Ethereum Smart Contract, a single-use Ethereum wallet address is generated for a set of payees (eg. the software author(s) and any number of other license fee recipients) designated to receive a proportion of an Ethereum fee payment. When the payment is received at the designated address -- the software License is generated, and any one of the payees can trigger the "smart contract" executing distribution of the fees to each of the payees' accounts, without being able to change the proportional distribution. None of this is possible under "TradFi". All of it (except for the automatic generation of the License) is possible under Ethereum "DeFi". The entire application (including automatic, atomic generation of the License and distribution of fees) is possible under Holochain. In all honesty -- whenever I hear "Crypto is a solution in search of a problem", I really have trouble not rolling my eyes. Perhaps that's not nice. But seriously; if you're here on HN, I have higher expectations of you. If you're enraged by this; perhaps there may be other forums more appropriate for you? :)

kristjansson 4y ago
So … circumventing sanctions?
Erikun 4y ago
In my opinion, removing the last paragraph would improve your post immensely. It would be a shame if the post got downvoted to oblivion because of it.
- pjkundert 4y ago
  I agree. But, my last 30 years of laissez faire has resulted in forums like HN becoming toxic with smug "Crypto is a solution in search of a problem" and "told ya Crypto was all a scam, yer dumb" Bros, yelling low-research insults without anyone pushing back on them... So, I'll leave it. If only the "Eternal September" crowd is allowed to be comfortable here (because we all just "let them have their opinion", as usual), we know what happens.
  - oblio 4y ago
    > So, I'll leave it. If only the "Eternal September" crowd is allowed to be comfortable here (because we all just "let them have their opinion", as usual), we know what happens. Smug-o, not all of us here were born yesterday. This is actually the wrong audience as the concentration of people who have been around the block a while is higher than for the average internet community.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    > yelling low-research insults without anyone pushing back on them... You'd think that in the past 14 years anyone would come up with a well-researched eloquent push back to the multitude of actually well researched eloquent questions that have been frequently asked of crypto enthusiasts. However, all we get back is utter drivel, cultlike devotion, and "just join the discords". The time of of eloquent questions has long passed. There is now a 0.999999999999999999999999 probabilty of anything crypto-related to be a scam, a solution in search of a problem, or a solution that ignores or is oblivious of the real world. It's on crypto enthuiasts to prove that their latest scam du-jour isn't a scam, and is an actual solution.

duped 4y ago

Absolutely none of this is obvious.

pjkundert 4y ago
What does "permissionless composability" in DeFi mean, if not this? Sure, its very expensive presently under the Ethereum version of "DeFi". Just like the original motorcar was expensive and fragile, and would break your arm occasionally while you crank-started it. Now, if the cost basis of each "DeFi" transaction is reduced by 5 orders of magnitude (see: Ethereum vs. Holochain) -- what are the potential outcomes of that?
- duped 4y ago
  I have no idea what "permissionless composability" means. "Permissionless" isn't even a word (without permission or permission-less to be pedantic), and I can think of several overlapping contexts that those words could be meaningful in finance and/or software. The problem is the language you're using sounds like bullshit.
  - pjkundert 4y ago
    Ah, sorry! Mea culpa. Permissioned vs. permissionless systems has been used for so long in my circles that I thought it was a thing... Even "DeFi" systems may not be permissionless, though. It's just that the permissions are visible constraints (ie. in the code) -- not just randos deciding to deplatform you because, you know, "reasons". This is an emerging risk to eg. Ethereum. Now, most "Staking" validators are "OFAC compliant". Does this mean that eventually the Ethereum blockchain will orphan any wallet that contains any Eth that went through the Tornado Cash mixer? What if you decided to compose the Tornado Cash mixer into your payment app, to maintain some anonymity in the face of a repressive regime say throwing gay people off roof tops? Would you consider a permissionless system bad, in that case? Because, OFAC decrees that you are currently a criminal (and guilty without charge or trial) if you do so. What if they decide, next week, that whatever you do presently use is now verboten? So, these concepts aren't "bullshit"; they are a present, serious concern to free peoples around the globe.

habinero 4y ago

None of those are things people care about, though, outside of a tiny niche. Most people find it pretty easy to avoid getting kicked off social media, and even if they do, it doesn't affect them. Likewise, "personal control of data" is meaningless. It's not like you can prevent people from taking the data and doing things with it. I struggle to think of any actual use cases for your last three points that don't boil down to FUD. Blockchain is neat, but it has no real use outside of extracting money from other people involuntarily.

pjkundert 4y ago
At this very moment, reasonable people are debating the very real possibility that Twitter could be removed from both the Apple and Google app stores. So, doesn't that astonishing fact deny pretty much every claim in your post? Crazies (the least perjorative term I could think of) that have the power to eject an App used by hundreds of millions of people, from those people's own platform, are dangerous -- to our liberty. And, when people are starving, and are forced to use only their oppressive regime's worthless money: these issues put citizens' lives at risk. So, yes: these are things people care about. Many just don't yet realize they could be the victims of these dangerous bullies forcing these sub-standard tools on them.
- habinero 4y ago
  No, and saying it's "astonishing" and "it's a threat to liberty" is ridiculous and incredibly overdramatic. It's just an app. Companies rise and fall, it's how it works. We lived just fine before it, we will be just fine after. Something will replace Twitter just like something replaced Friendster and MySpace.