5 ms·

I don't intend to de-rail the convo, but this is an important one. > improve inter-family relationships It could, maybe, but it can also be a significant sour

I don't intend to de-rail the convo, but this is an important one. > improve inter-family relationships It could, maybe, but it can also be a significant source of strife. It's tough spending all day, every day with someone. Because of that, you find that people are either looking for larger homes in order to have private work spaces or renting office space. Both of those shift the cost burden from the company to the individual.

ljf 4y ago
You are very right - I am very lucky to have a shed/office I can hide away in and get some great work done in. I'd say it is a far better and more comfortable space than any office I've worked in. But when I had to work at the kitchen table with my wife and family in other rooms in the house it was so much harder. For those with room, especially if you have a good sized commute, remote working is great (I really really value being able to eat with my kids and hang out in the evening), but you are right that if you are two people in a small 1 bed flat, or a few people in a house share, or just a family in a standard family house, then yes remote working is not always going to be a bonus.
- Asooka 4y ago
  I can't imagine living in a home where every member doesn't have their own quiet/study/work space. I say this as someone who has lived most of his life in apartment buildings where that was a bit challenging, but definitely not impossible. I guess maybe if you are used to living your life outside of the house an just visit to eat and sleep you feel differently, but that's the beauty of WFH - you get to pick what best works for you.
  - ljf 4y ago
    Very much this, but I've been lucky and riden the house price increases well to end up in a largeish place - but even then if I didn't have a garden office it would be hard. Two friends if mine move to the nearest city and got a small one bed as they both do a lot out of the flat - theatre, movies, bars, sports etc - so the house was really a place to sleep and shower, plus eat and relax a little. Home working for them meant losing space in their kitchen/livingroom/dining room - and having one of them work from the bed room. Inner city UK flats are often very small, and still relatively expensive.
xwdv 4y ago
Alternatively, because of the expectation that partners will not be around 24/7, people may have been selecting sub-optimal partners. If remote work becomes the norm your standards for a long term partner may become higher as you need to ensure you do not get tired of being around them.
- wobbly_bush 4y ago
  Interesting point. Would it reduce the "individualism" present in the US? I've always found it interesting how much companies market individualism (specially fashion companies). More intense individualism also makes it harder to find another person who can be tolerated due to their individualism.
  - xwdv 4y ago
    I find if a person’s individualism is incompatible with yours, life can be harder for little to no increased benefit.
silverpepsi 4y ago
Is the term "improve relationships" even appropriate as a "goal" when children are involved? As a 12-17 year old, there was nothing more awesome than having the house to myself, no parents. Relationships were better, as lower contact hours means less harassment and less use of each other as an emotional punching bag. However, contact hours are desirable for actual child rearing outcomes. Lingusitic development in the early years = has a huge impact on vocabulary development with college-educated parents and for older kids discipline... two brothers grew up being watched like a hawk by my mom. Two younger ones grew up as latchkey kids once she went back to work. Outcomes were quite different.
- bobwaycott 4y ago
  > Is the term "improve relationships" even appropriate as a "goal" when children are involved? … lower contact hours means less harassment and less use of each other as an emotional punching bag. I’m really sorry this was your childhood. I can heavily relate, as I grew up feeling the same way. Now, 20+ years and two adult children later, I can say that the best thing I ever did as a parent was make building and improving my relationship with my children my top goal and priority from day one. They’ve never been my emotional punching bags, or my emotional support animals. I’ve always had my eye on where we are now—them being adults. This is the period I have been intentionally building toward since I was changing diapers. It means I focused on treating and considering them as their own unique and independent people since before they knew it. My childhood modeled what I absolutely did not want to repeat with my children. This meant I was responsible for modeling how to truly listen, respect, and support their thoughts and decisions; for creating a safe environment; for explaining myself clearly when necessary so they could understand me as a person, without resorting to “because I’m the parent”; and, most importantly, for apologizing when I was the one in the wrong. I’ve done a lot differently than I experienced growing up, and unless my sons are lying to me (which they don’t do), it’s made all the difference compared to the relationships they see among my parents and extended family. For most of their childhood, I worked from home. I believe it is part of why I built such a good and healthy relationship that’s now the foundation of all three of us being adults—not least of all because when I screwed up, I could apologize and use all that time to improve the relationship by resolving my mistakes, modeling the respect and love they deserved, and building a better future.
MarcoSanto 4y ago
This. FFS who wants to stay home to live and work!?!? I don’t understand WFH. the right way is to have better public transport and cheaper housing, not secluded lives.
- msmenardi 4y ago
  It'd also be nice if companies were forced to pay for time spent commuting
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Obfuscating costs and increasing the complexity makes no sense. Variable rate tolling on roads to disincentivize unnecessary travel by individual car makes more sense.
    - counttheforks 4y ago
      Then the companies will just tell you to suck it up and pay the tax yourself, or they'll find someone else.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        And that someone else will also have to pay the tolls. Therefore both employer and employee will be incentivized to locate in places with higher density housing to reduce costs.
  - erik_seaberg 4y ago
    Then to compete we’d have to move more often and pay more for less space to live even closer to the office.
  - aaronax 4y ago
    So then their next move would be to mandate that you live within a certain commute range. I don't think we want that.
  - 4y ago
deckard1 4y ago
> It's tough spending all day, every day with someone You literally do this with coworkers in an office. Except, you didn't get to pick those people and you have to be even physically closer to them. The last office I worked in was an open floor plan and the guy three feet next to me typed so hard I thought he would break his keyboard. And he was on a rubber dome!! It was louder than the loudest mechanical keyboard. Before that I sat next to the sales department. They would talk loudly on the phone for 8 straight hours. One time my desk was next to the break room. You like hearing people talk all day long? > in order to have private work spaces With open floor plans the only privacy you get is when you put on your headphones. Anyone walking by still sees your screen and wearing headphones all day is not great for your health.
- ibejoeb 4y ago
  Most people do not live around the clock in an office. Many people spend entire days at their homes because there is nowhere else to go. None of this goes to suggest that the bad aspects of offices are better.
wesapien 4y ago
Less people are making offspring so no need to improve families. A dog or cat is a pet.

ljf 4y ago

You are very right - I am very lucky to have a shed/office I can hide away in and get some great work done in. I'd say it is a far better and more comfortable space than any office I've worked in. But when I had to work at the kitchen table with my wife and family in other rooms in the house it was so much harder. For those with room, especially if you have a good sized commute, remote working is great (I really really value being able to eat with my kids and hang out in the evening), but you are right that if you are two people in a small 1 bed flat, or a few people in a house share, or just a family in a standard family house, then yes remote working is not always going to be a bonus.

Asooka 4y ago
I can't imagine living in a home where every member doesn't have their own quiet/study/work space. I say this as someone who has lived most of his life in apartment buildings where that was a bit challenging, but definitely not impossible. I guess maybe if you are used to living your life outside of the house an just visit to eat and sleep you feel differently, but that's the beauty of WFH - you get to pick what best works for you.
- ljf 4y ago
  Very much this, but I've been lucky and riden the house price increases well to end up in a largeish place - but even then if I didn't have a garden office it would be hard. Two friends if mine move to the nearest city and got a small one bed as they both do a lot out of the flat - theatre, movies, bars, sports etc - so the house was really a place to sleep and shower, plus eat and relax a little. Home working for them meant losing space in their kitchen/livingroom/dining room - and having one of them work from the bed room. Inner city UK flats are often very small, and still relatively expensive.

xwdv 4y ago

Alternatively, because of the expectation that partners will not be around 24/7, people may have been selecting sub-optimal partners. If remote work becomes the norm your standards for a long term partner may become higher as you need to ensure you do not get tired of being around them.

wobbly_bush 4y ago
Interesting point. Would it reduce the "individualism" present in the US? I've always found it interesting how much companies market individualism (specially fashion companies). More intense individualism also makes it harder to find another person who can be tolerated due to their individualism.
- xwdv 4y ago
  I find if a person’s individualism is incompatible with yours, life can be harder for little to no increased benefit.

silverpepsi 4y ago

Is the term "improve relationships" even appropriate as a "goal" when children are involved? As a 12-17 year old, there was nothing more awesome than having the house to myself, no parents. Relationships were better, as lower contact hours means less harassment and less use of each other as an emotional punching bag. However, contact hours are desirable for actual child rearing outcomes. Lingusitic development in the early years = has a huge impact on vocabulary development with college-educated parents and for older kids discipline... two brothers grew up being watched like a hawk by my mom. Two younger ones grew up as latchkey kids once she went back to work. Outcomes were quite different.

bobwaycott 4y ago
> Is the term "improve relationships" even appropriate as a "goal" when children are involved? … lower contact hours means less harassment and less use of each other as an emotional punching bag. I’m really sorry this was your childhood. I can heavily relate, as I grew up feeling the same way. Now, 20+ years and two adult children later, I can say that the best thing I ever did as a parent was make building and improving my relationship with my children my top goal and priority from day one. They’ve never been my emotional punching bags, or my emotional support animals. I’ve always had my eye on where we are now—them being adults. This is the period I have been intentionally building toward since I was changing diapers. It means I focused on treating and considering them as their own unique and independent people since before they knew it. My childhood modeled what I absolutely did not want to repeat with my children. This meant I was responsible for modeling how to truly listen, respect, and support their thoughts and decisions; for creating a safe environment; for explaining myself clearly when necessary so they could understand me as a person, without resorting to “because I’m the parent”; and, most importantly, for apologizing when I was the one in the wrong. I’ve done a lot differently than I experienced growing up, and unless my sons are lying to me (which they don’t do), it’s made all the difference compared to the relationships they see among my parents and extended family. For most of their childhood, I worked from home. I believe it is part of why I built such a good and healthy relationship that’s now the foundation of all three of us being adults—not least of all because when I screwed up, I could apologize and use all that time to improve the relationship by resolving my mistakes, modeling the respect and love they deserved, and building a better future.

MarcoSanto 4y ago

This. FFS who wants to stay home to live and work!?!? I don’t understand WFH. the right way is to have better public transport and cheaper housing, not secluded lives.

msmenardi 4y ago
It'd also be nice if companies were forced to pay for time spent commuting
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Obfuscating costs and increasing the complexity makes no sense. Variable rate tolling on roads to disincentivize unnecessary travel by individual car makes more sense.
  - counttheforks 4y ago
    Then the companies will just tell you to suck it up and pay the tax yourself, or they'll find someone else.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      And that someone else will also have to pay the tolls. Therefore both employer and employee will be incentivized to locate in places with higher density housing to reduce costs.
- erik_seaberg 4y ago
  Then to compete we’d have to move more often and pay more for less space to live even closer to the office.
- aaronax 4y ago
  So then their next move would be to mandate that you live within a certain commute range. I don't think we want that.
- 4y ago

deckard1 4y ago

> It's tough spending all day, every day with someone You literally do this with coworkers in an office. Except, you didn't get to pick those people and you have to be even physically closer to them. The last office I worked in was an open floor plan and the guy three feet next to me typed so hard I thought he would break his keyboard. And he was on a rubber dome!! It was louder than the loudest mechanical keyboard. Before that I sat next to the sales department. They would talk loudly on the phone for 8 straight hours. One time my desk was next to the break room. You like hearing people talk all day long? > in order to have private work spaces With open floor plans the only privacy you get is when you put on your headphones. Anyone walking by still sees your screen and wearing headphones all day is not great for your health.

ibejoeb 4y ago
Most people do not live around the clock in an office. Many people spend entire days at their homes because there is nowhere else to go. None of this goes to suggest that the bad aspects of offices are better.

wesapien 4y ago

Less people are making offspring so no need to improve families. A dog or cat is a pet.