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It’s an interesting piece, and I think it’s intended to be satirical (and done rather well). But, I grew up in an actual cult. The comments here to the effect

It’s an interesting piece, and I think it’s intended to be satirical (and done rather well). But, I grew up in an actual cult. The comments here to the effect of “everything’s a cult” and “startups are cults” and “HN is a cult” - oh gosh. Nothing could be further from the truth. HN is not a cult, folks. I’m glad people can make those jokes though, because I immediately know they didn’t experience what I did. They have never experienced the ongoing heartbreak of losing your entire world when you leave - your family, your friends, your job, your social life, your religion, your everything. People who get out don’t tend to make light of it. In any case: know that there are actual cults in operation, and they do tremendous harm. The “everything’s a cult” stuff allows them to operate more freely these days.

macintux 4y ago
The world seems replete with similar falsehoods these days, to prevent us from caring about the real criminals. I'm glad you escaped, and thanks for sharing.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
tapland 4y ago
It's been very hard finding a psychologist in Scandinavia who even understands the concept. And lately it's been getting really bad having to re-tell the reasons for the PTSD diagnosis to doctors who go "oh, well, a lot of people _say _they have PTSD"
- drewbug01 4y ago
  I had a similar experience finding a therapist who could work with “religious trauma”. Part of the reason I finally started calling it a cult (despite the stigma) is that at least in the US that seemed to help people understand that I meant something deeper and darker than the average person. (Not to mention: a lot of people get really touchy with the idea that religion can be “traumatic” at all.)
  - tomrod 4y ago
    Isn't that odd, that people are gunshy to acknowledge religion as traumatic? There is one comment on the board calling out the article's negatively towards magical thinking as bigotry. To folks that are recovering from religious trauma, it's straight up lived experience.
    - drewbug01 4y ago
      > Isn't that odd, that people are gunshy to acknowledge religion as traumatic? Truthfully? I find it very difficult to see religion as anything other than traumatic, because what I went through was so bad and different than what most people think of when they think of “religion.” I don’t know if I have any real objectivity in the matter. I do feel that there is something interesting in that line of thought, however. Perhaps it has to do with the intensely personal nature of religious conviction, and the existential subject matter it deals with?
      - tomrod 4y ago
        A few years out, while I'll never return to religion, I get the draw of community and the lack of really caring about what others define as the worldview for most adherents still in their respective systems. Something of genuine objectivity can be returned to by victims of religious trauma, IMHO, but it takes a lot of processing and a general sense of cynical apathy. All and all, communities in general can create trauma. Its odd to me that many religions tend to be especially good at it. On the other hand, some religions I respect greatly for their desire to improve the lives of their adherents. Reform Judaism and their commitment to tzedakah and tikkun olam, Sikhism, liberal Christianity, and so forth. Religion is a mechanism to transfer culture (though not exclusively so). When it cuts out its feedback mechanisms in its governance structure, it inevitably becomes toxic.
  - wonder_er 4y ago
    > a lot of people get really touchy with the idea that religion can be “traumatic” at all. 1000x. I think religion gets traumatic when it is all about dressing up guilt and shame for behavior control. That is when it gets traumatic. Parents using shame to get specific behaviors from their kids (or prevent certain behaviors) are turning a very powerful tool against their kids, and it hurts everyone. I'm no-contact with _both_ my parents, over this issue, and they're not even able to perceive that they used shame, constantly, against all three of their children, and continue to do so.
tomrod 4y ago
As a fellow cult survivor, I agree with your view. Almost 10 years out, my spouse and I still make inside jokes for the insider speech and content. However, the exit process is one that seems exclusively designed to prevent dignity from being maintained. Ed: > They have never experienced the ongoing heartbreak of losing your entire world when you leave - your family, your friends, your job, your social life, your religion, your everything. On the flip side, many years down the way, I love that I got to start over and define my own life rather than be forced to live the terms handed to me. It was damn hard, letting go. I would never assert otherwise. The path since has been an adventure, without question.
- drewbug01 4y ago
  I definitely get that - I don’t have anyone close to me right now that escaped (sadly not all of those escapes were permanent), but I’ve been able to joke around with fellow survivors in the past. It felt really freeing to be able to talk openly enough such that we could crack a joke about it. :) I’m glad you and your wife were able to get out, too. :)
  - tomrod 4y ago
    Likewise. All the best to you. I was extremely lucky my spouse came along and left a few years after me.
sirsinsalot 4y ago
I think this is a really important point. We use lots of terms these days in ever more generic ways: cult, gaslighting, abuse, "I'm a bit OCD" ... each broader use of the language weakens the contexts where the language is more pointed. Of course, context is everything and language is fluid, but think pieces that inadvertently soften words can also downgrade important intentions as a side-effect.
- cercatrova 4y ago
  This is known as a euphemism treadmill.
- drewbug01 4y ago
  I agree with that, yes. Of course - I’m glad that society now speaks about these things openly (rather than pretending mental health issues were not real problems). But it does come with the downside you highlighted.
- jcims 4y ago
  It's like the loudness wars in music production. Dynamic range in language is being sacrificed to elevate the mundane. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
  - pas 4y ago
    Spectrum things are spectrum things after all, and they are symptom driven diagnoses, so colloquial usage of these terms are not particularly bad/incorrect/invalid. Though of course it can lead to misuderstandings and severe conflicts when someone who suffers gravely from one such condition and now in addition they have to add more qualifiers and verbosity to try to express their needs.
    - jcims 4y ago
      I would argue they are bad/incorrect/invalid if they dilute the meaning or abuse its gravity for effect.
P_I_Staker 4y ago
Yeah cults are pretty specific beasts
kardianos 4y ago
"Everything is a cult" appears to stem from the idea that "everything is political/a social construct". This of course is false because there exists a reality that establishes what is common to man and that there better and worse ways of living. The danger of the "everything is a ..." mindset is it allows utopian and virtue ideology to lead and control people.
cainxinth 4y ago
Cults have common and shared warning signs: https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-in-a-cult-1921eb5a3857 https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-... 1. The leader is the ultimate authority 2. The group suppresses skepticism 3. The group delegitimizes former members 4. The group is paranoid about the outside world 5. The group relies on shame cycles 6. The leader is above the law 7. The group uses “thought reform” methods 8. The group is elitist 9. There is no financial transparency 10. The group performs secret rites Also, not all cults are religious. Some are tied to economic activity (MLMs are very culty, for example), and dysfunctional families often take on a cult-like atmosphere, with a charismatic and controlling parent backed by enablers as they abuse a scapegoat and dominate the family.
- camjohnson26 4y ago
  It’s been posted here before but The Guru Papers is a great exploration of the workings of cults and authoritarianism. https://www.amazon.com/Guru-Papers-Masks-Authoritarian-Power-ebook/dp/B007WL0JHE https://www.amazon.com/Guru-Papers-Masks-Authoritarian-Power...
  - mistrial9 4y ago
    I enjoyed reading "Holy Madness: Spirituality, Crazy-Wise Teachers, and Enlightenment" by G. Feuerstein. great re-visit of the sometimes ridiculous counter-culture of the 1960s and 1970s West.
- prirun 4y ago
  In summary, every religion.
  - mistermann 4y ago
    https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/2MD3NMLBPCqPfnfre/cached-thoughts https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/2MD3NMLBPCqPfnfre/cached-tho... What I like about this article is that the author suffers from the very phenomenon they are describing, demonstrating how ubiquitous and hard to detect in oneself it is.
orblivion 4y ago
Do you think that any of these things have cult-like tendencies, or is it a completely distinct phenomenon? It seems like people can go down a rabbit hole to varying degrees. I know I have that tendency. I went down the Scott Adams rabbit hole and allowed him to convince me of some silly things, but I had enough self-awareness not to get too sucked in. And it seems like QAnon is a much more extreme version of the same thing. You grew up in a cult, so I'm guessing you didn't have the same transformative experience of a new recruit. I could see the evidence that QAnon people were posting on Twitter for their beliefs, the apparent predictions and signs in what the president was saying or posting on Twitter. And because of my mental health history, I know the feeling of seeing something really convincing like that, and feeling the ground drop out from under you, and your whole world suddenly change (even if I snap out of it later). I can see behind the curtain, I know something about the nature of reality that everyone would think is ridiculous because they just haven't seen it yet. I always imagined that this is how a cult gets a new recruit. I don't know if QAnon has the radical separation aspect where you can't be friends with former members if you leave. But QAnon is certainly something bad. Does it have aspects of a cult, to you? Is there such a thing as varying degrees, even if it's not a real cult until it reaches the threshold?
- jerf 4y ago
  Are there varying degrees? Sure. Can QAnon be a cult in a more strict sense of the term? I have a hard time believing in the existence of a cult that exists over the internet where most or all of its members are internet handles; how exactly does one punish "slimeDogAvarest281" for betraying the cult? Or per cainxinth's point, how does on perform "secret rites" over the internet? I think that gets back to grandparent's point that not everything is a cult and you diminish the term using it so freely. "There's a group that believes things I don't like and think is silly" is not a cult. I don't think you understand the sheer degree of social pressure cults can bring to bear, and I don't think that sort of pressure can be transmitted over a channel the so-called cult member can just shut off and disappear and nobody knows how to follow them. Or, to put it another way, when the exit is as easy as the entrance, it really can't be a cult. I think critical to the cult aspect is that you can't just leave. Did Scott Adams chase you down and tell his followers to harass you? No, of course not. How could he? Neither he nor anyone else even so much as noticed you. That's not a cult by any definition.
halpmeh 4y ago
I don't think the point is that everything is a cult. Rather, the point is for you to reflect if maybe you are part of something cult-like. And no, I don't think HN is a cult or most startups are a cult. Yesterday was Sunday. I have a kid, meaning I have little time and I'm frequently tired. I was driving around town and I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass. And it got me thinking. These people spend multiple hours every Sunday going to worship something they have no evidence exists. The only reason most of them do so is because their parents told them this thing exists. And their parents only do so because they were told my their parents, etc. And this practice has continued on for thousands of years, all because people regard a particular ancient book as true, despite being able to articulate why. And there I was, tired and longing for just a few hours of solace. I wouldn't call myself an atheist. But blindly following a ceremony your entire life, indoctrinating your kids, etc. definitely feels cult-like to me. Maybe not the worst cult ever, though.
- blue039 4y ago
  > And no, I don't think HN is a cult or most startups are a cult. On the contrary in the case of HN it fits most criteria perfectly 1. Elevation of someone to diety status (Graham, <startup founder of the week>) 2. Shunning outsiders (mocking redditors, another cult) 3. Enforced group think through shame rituals ("As a..." response posts, downvoting). 4. Belief that the HN system is superior to all other systems HN, like nearly ALL modern startups, would qualify as cults. Remove the downvoting enforced groupthink and maybe I'd be inclined to agree with you. Until then, I refuse to. Upvote/downvote culture enforces the exact behavior required to punish and shame people with differing opinions into conforming. It's a sinister assault on human psychology and all sites doing this (HN included) should feel deeply ashamed. For being an alleged "libertarian/liberal" oasis in the middle of a barren internet desert, this place is far more like Jonestown than, for example, the philosophy department of a top 10 university despite seemingly every poster here believing truly they have 9e40 IQ and are one self help book away from unlocking literal gigabrain magic.
  - halpmeh 4y ago
    You're conflating the HN "hivemind" with the individual members. I doubt most HN users check all 4 boxes. E.g. I read Reddit and don't elevate startup founders to deity status. I'm also not ostracized for these views.
asadotzler 4y ago
I grew up in a cult that did very little harm to me and my family. I'd actually say I came out the better for having experienced it over the typical white middle class life I landed in afterwards and the childhoods relayed to my by my suburban neighbor friends.
alfor 4y ago
Everything is a cult to some extent. That how humans works. We need meaning and a group of people to share it with. Be it progressivism, maga, HN, Catholic, etc. If it’s a good one it’s not completely detached from reality and doesn’t shunt outsiders and outsides ideas too much.
sieabahlpark 4y ago
throw_away765 4y ago
I experienced "the ongoing heartbreak" of losing my family, relatives, friends and social life when I started reading the Bible... So did I also left some kind of cult? The "free liberals" will disconnect from you these days if you are "too conservative"... I thought the liberalism is accepting all different opinions...

macintux 4y ago

The world seems replete with similar falsehoods these days, to prevent us from caring about the real criminals. I'm glad you escaped, and thanks for sharing.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

tapland 4y ago

It's been very hard finding a psychologist in Scandinavia who even understands the concept. And lately it's been getting really bad having to re-tell the reasons for the PTSD diagnosis to doctors who go "oh, well, a lot of people _say _they have PTSD"

drewbug01 4y ago
I had a similar experience finding a therapist who could work with “religious trauma”. Part of the reason I finally started calling it a cult (despite the stigma) is that at least in the US that seemed to help people understand that I meant something deeper and darker than the average person. (Not to mention: a lot of people get really touchy with the idea that religion can be “traumatic” at all.)
- tomrod 4y ago
  Isn't that odd, that people are gunshy to acknowledge religion as traumatic? There is one comment on the board calling out the article's negatively towards magical thinking as bigotry. To folks that are recovering from religious trauma, it's straight up lived experience.
  - drewbug01 4y ago
    > Isn't that odd, that people are gunshy to acknowledge religion as traumatic? Truthfully? I find it very difficult to see religion as anything other than traumatic, because what I went through was so bad and different than what most people think of when they think of “religion.” I don’t know if I have any real objectivity in the matter. I do feel that there is something interesting in that line of thought, however. Perhaps it has to do with the intensely personal nature of religious conviction, and the existential subject matter it deals with?
    - tomrod 4y ago
      A few years out, while I'll never return to religion, I get the draw of community and the lack of really caring about what others define as the worldview for most adherents still in their respective systems. Something of genuine objectivity can be returned to by victims of religious trauma, IMHO, but it takes a lot of processing and a general sense of cynical apathy. All and all, communities in general can create trauma. Its odd to me that many religions tend to be especially good at it. On the other hand, some religions I respect greatly for their desire to improve the lives of their adherents. Reform Judaism and their commitment to tzedakah and tikkun olam, Sikhism, liberal Christianity, and so forth. Religion is a mechanism to transfer culture (though not exclusively so). When it cuts out its feedback mechanisms in its governance structure, it inevitably becomes toxic.
- wonder_er 4y ago
  > a lot of people get really touchy with the idea that religion can be “traumatic” at all. 1000x. I think religion gets traumatic when it is all about dressing up guilt and shame for behavior control. That is when it gets traumatic. Parents using shame to get specific behaviors from their kids (or prevent certain behaviors) are turning a very powerful tool against their kids, and it hurts everyone. I'm no-contact with _both_ my parents, over this issue, and they're not even able to perceive that they used shame, constantly, against all three of their children, and continue to do so.

tomrod 4y ago

As a fellow cult survivor, I agree with your view. Almost 10 years out, my spouse and I still make inside jokes for the insider speech and content. However, the exit process is one that seems exclusively designed to prevent dignity from being maintained. Ed: > They have never experienced the ongoing heartbreak of losing your entire world when you leave - your family, your friends, your job, your social life, your religion, your everything. On the flip side, many years down the way, I love that I got to start over and define my own life rather than be forced to live the terms handed to me. It was damn hard, letting go. I would never assert otherwise. The path since has been an adventure, without question.

drewbug01 4y ago
I definitely get that - I don’t have anyone close to me right now that escaped (sadly not all of those escapes were permanent), but I’ve been able to joke around with fellow survivors in the past. It felt really freeing to be able to talk openly enough such that we could crack a joke about it. :) I’m glad you and your wife were able to get out, too. :)
- tomrod 4y ago
  Likewise. All the best to you. I was extremely lucky my spouse came along and left a few years after me.

sirsinsalot 4y ago

I think this is a really important point. We use lots of terms these days in ever more generic ways: cult, gaslighting, abuse, "I'm a bit OCD" ... each broader use of the language weakens the contexts where the language is more pointed. Of course, context is everything and language is fluid, but think pieces that inadvertently soften words can also downgrade important intentions as a side-effect.

cercatrova 4y ago
This is known as a euphemism treadmill.
drewbug01 4y ago
I agree with that, yes. Of course - I’m glad that society now speaks about these things openly (rather than pretending mental health issues were not real problems). But it does come with the downside you highlighted.
jcims 4y ago
It's like the loudness wars in music production. Dynamic range in language is being sacrificed to elevate the mundane. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
- pas 4y ago
  Spectrum things are spectrum things after all, and they are symptom driven diagnoses, so colloquial usage of these terms are not particularly bad/incorrect/invalid. Though of course it can lead to misuderstandings and severe conflicts when someone who suffers gravely from one such condition and now in addition they have to add more qualifiers and verbosity to try to express their needs.
  - jcims 4y ago
    I would argue they are bad/incorrect/invalid if they dilute the meaning or abuse its gravity for effect.

P_I_Staker 4y ago

Yeah cults are pretty specific beasts

kardianos 4y ago

"Everything is a cult" appears to stem from the idea that "everything is political/a social construct". This of course is false because there exists a reality that establishes what is common to man and that there better and worse ways of living. The danger of the "everything is a ..." mindset is it allows utopian and virtue ideology to lead and control people.

cainxinth 4y ago

Cults have common and shared warning signs: https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-in-a-cult-1921eb5a3857 https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-... 1. The leader is the ultimate authority 2. The group suppresses skepticism 3. The group delegitimizes former members 4. The group is paranoid about the outside world 5. The group relies on shame cycles 6. The leader is above the law 7. The group uses “thought reform” methods 8. The group is elitist 9. There is no financial transparency 10. The group performs secret rites Also, not all cults are religious. Some are tied to economic activity (MLMs are very culty, for example), and dysfunctional families often take on a cult-like atmosphere, with a charismatic and controlling parent backed by enablers as they abuse a scapegoat and dominate the family.

camjohnson26 4y ago
It’s been posted here before but The Guru Papers is a great exploration of the workings of cults and authoritarianism. https://www.amazon.com/Guru-Papers-Masks-Authoritarian-Power-ebook/dp/B007WL0JHE https://www.amazon.com/Guru-Papers-Masks-Authoritarian-Power...
- mistrial9 4y ago
  I enjoyed reading "Holy Madness: Spirituality, Crazy-Wise Teachers, and Enlightenment" by G. Feuerstein. great re-visit of the sometimes ridiculous counter-culture of the 1960s and 1970s West.
prirun 4y ago
In summary, every religion.
- mistermann 4y ago
  https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/2MD3NMLBPCqPfnfre/cached-thoughts https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/2MD3NMLBPCqPfnfre/cached-tho... What I like about this article is that the author suffers from the very phenomenon they are describing, demonstrating how ubiquitous and hard to detect in oneself it is.

orblivion 4y ago

Do you think that any of these things have cult-like tendencies, or is it a completely distinct phenomenon? It seems like people can go down a rabbit hole to varying degrees. I know I have that tendency. I went down the Scott Adams rabbit hole and allowed him to convince me of some silly things, but I had enough self-awareness not to get too sucked in. And it seems like QAnon is a much more extreme version of the same thing. You grew up in a cult, so I'm guessing you didn't have the same transformative experience of a new recruit. I could see the evidence that QAnon people were posting on Twitter for their beliefs, the apparent predictions and signs in what the president was saying or posting on Twitter. And because of my mental health history, I know the feeling of seeing something really convincing like that, and feeling the ground drop out from under you, and your whole world suddenly change (even if I snap out of it later). I can see behind the curtain, I know something about the nature of reality that everyone would think is ridiculous because they just haven't seen it yet. I always imagined that this is how a cult gets a new recruit. I don't know if QAnon has the radical separation aspect where you can't be friends with former members if you leave. But QAnon is certainly something bad. Does it have aspects of a cult, to you? Is there such a thing as varying degrees, even if it's not a real cult until it reaches the threshold?

jerf 4y ago
Are there varying degrees? Sure. Can QAnon be a cult in a more strict sense of the term? I have a hard time believing in the existence of a cult that exists over the internet where most or all of its members are internet handles; how exactly does one punish "slimeDogAvarest281" for betraying the cult? Or per cainxinth's point, how does on perform "secret rites" over the internet? I think that gets back to grandparent's point that not everything is a cult and you diminish the term using it so freely. "There's a group that believes things I don't like and think is silly" is not a cult. I don't think you understand the sheer degree of social pressure cults can bring to bear, and I don't think that sort of pressure can be transmitted over a channel the so-called cult member can just shut off and disappear and nobody knows how to follow them. Or, to put it another way, when the exit is as easy as the entrance, it really can't be a cult. I think critical to the cult aspect is that you can't just leave. Did Scott Adams chase you down and tell his followers to harass you? No, of course not. How could he? Neither he nor anyone else even so much as noticed you. That's not a cult by any definition.

halpmeh 4y ago

I don't think the point is that everything is a cult. Rather, the point is for you to reflect if maybe you are part of something cult-like. And no, I don't think HN is a cult or most startups are a cult. Yesterday was Sunday. I have a kid, meaning I have little time and I'm frequently tired. I was driving around town and I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass. And it got me thinking. These people spend multiple hours every Sunday going to worship something they have no evidence exists. The only reason most of them do so is because their parents told them this thing exists. And their parents only do so because they were told my their parents, etc. And this practice has continued on for thousands of years, all because people regard a particular ancient book as true, despite being able to articulate why. And there I was, tired and longing for just a few hours of solace. I wouldn't call myself an atheist. But blindly following a ceremony your entire life, indoctrinating your kids, etc. definitely feels cult-like to me. Maybe not the worst cult ever, though.

blue039 4y ago
> And no, I don't think HN is a cult or most startups are a cult. On the contrary in the case of HN it fits most criteria perfectly 1. Elevation of someone to diety status (Graham, <startup founder of the week>) 2. Shunning outsiders (mocking redditors, another cult) 3. Enforced group think through shame rituals ("As a..." response posts, downvoting). 4. Belief that the HN system is superior to all other systems HN, like nearly ALL modern startups, would qualify as cults. Remove the downvoting enforced groupthink and maybe I'd be inclined to agree with you. Until then, I refuse to. Upvote/downvote culture enforces the exact behavior required to punish and shame people with differing opinions into conforming. It's a sinister assault on human psychology and all sites doing this (HN included) should feel deeply ashamed. For being an alleged "libertarian/liberal" oasis in the middle of a barren internet desert, this place is far more like Jonestown than, for example, the philosophy department of a top 10 university despite seemingly every poster here believing truly they have 9e40 IQ and are one self help book away from unlocking literal gigabrain magic.
- halpmeh 4y ago
  You're conflating the HN "hivemind" with the individual members. I doubt most HN users check all 4 boxes. E.g. I read Reddit and don't elevate startup founders to deity status. I'm also not ostracized for these views.

asadotzler 4y ago

I grew up in a cult that did very little harm to me and my family. I'd actually say I came out the better for having experienced it over the typical white middle class life I landed in afterwards and the childhoods relayed to my by my suburban neighbor friends.

alfor 4y ago

Everything is a cult to some extent. That how humans works. We need meaning and a group of people to share it with. Be it progressivism, maga, HN, Catholic, etc. If it’s a good one it’s not completely detached from reality and doesn’t shunt outsiders and outsides ideas too much.

sieabahlpark 4y ago

throw_away765 4y ago

I experienced "the ongoing heartbreak" of losing my family, relatives, friends and social life when I started reading the Bible... So did I also left some kind of cult? The "free liberals" will disconnect from you these days if you are "too conservative"... I thought the liberalism is accepting all different opinions...