4 ms·

I'm pretty sure it's religion. You will experience unpleasant feelings here. Feelings your cult has told you are of the devil. Part of our program involve

I'm pretty sure it's religion. You will experience unpleasant feelings here. Feelings your cult has told you are of the devil. Part of our program involves exposing you to the idea that there are very rarely easy answers in life. People suffer for no reason. You will suffer, and have suffered, for no reason. But people can also do great things for no reason, or rather unmotivated by some promise of godly exaltation or gift in a theoretical afterlife.

gwd 4y ago
It sounds like the problem thinking they're trying to address here is the idea, "I'm suffering because I've done something bad and am being punished by God." But if they think this kind of thinking is directly linked to religion, then it's just ignorance and bigotry. Consider the folloing quote: "Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions." The people I know who most strongly connect with that quote have all been (right-wing) atheists. By contrast, consider the following quotes: 'As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him."' (John 9:1-2) 'Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.' (James 1:2-4) 'In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.' (1 Peter 6-7) 'Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.' (Hebrews 12:7-11) In other words, Christianity says that far from suffering always being a punishment from God for bad behavior, it is sometimes a gift from God to accomplish a greater purpose. So consider three hypothetical universes: 1. Nearly all your suffering is your fault; the result of God's wrath and/or the natural consequence of your own bad choices. 2. Most suffering is pointless. It has no meaning or benefit or blame; it just happens. 3. Suffering can be valuable. It is allowed by God because it achieves higher purposes; we as individuals , and the universe at large, are both better off because of the suffering. I agree with the authors, that universe #2 (if true) is better than universe #1. But universe #3 -- the universe actually described by Christianity -- is even better.
- TrapLord_Rhodo 4y ago
  >Christianity says that far from suffering always being a punishment from God for bad behavior. Besides, you know... Hell, lakes of sulfur and eternal damnation.
  - jondeval 4y ago
    > Besides, you know... For those interested in knowing the actual Christian teaching on the topic of hell, just be aware that this comment is completely incorrect.
    - mbreese 4y ago
      For those looking to find a definitive “actual” teaching on hell (or any topic) in Christianity, just be aware, it will take a while. There are a lot of denominations, each with many differing takes on hell. The above comment is reflective of one such interpretation of hell. Not an exclusive interpretation, but still a valid one.
      - jondeval 4y ago
        > Not an exclusive interpretation, but still a valid one. This is only technically true in the sense that the weakest straw man still gets a seat at the table. My comment is directed only to people who would be interested in investigating this topic with a sense of proportion. If you bring a sense of proportion to the investigation you will rule out fringe theologies and converge on a Christian teaching that looks nothing like the original canard.
        mbreese 4y ago
        My point is that there is no one Christian teaching. I know many people who believe in the literal fire and brimstone definition of Hell who are devout Christians. Trying to claim there is one “true” interpretation and all others are fringe is folly. What is true to one group is a cult belief to another. If you want to claim that your Christian beliefs don't include that definition of hell, you’d have a much better argument. Just don’t claim you speak for all Christians…

gwd 4y ago

It sounds like the problem thinking they're trying to address here is the idea, "I'm suffering because I've done something bad and am being punished by God." But if they think this kind of thinking is directly linked to religion, then it's just ignorance and bigotry. Consider the folloing quote: "Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions." The people I know who most strongly connect with that quote have all been (right-wing) atheists. By contrast, consider the following quotes: 'As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him."' (John 9:1-2) 'Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.' (James 1:2-4) 'In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.' (1 Peter 6-7) 'Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.' (Hebrews 12:7-11) In other words, Christianity says that far from suffering always being a punishment from God for bad behavior, it is sometimes a gift from God to accomplish a greater purpose. So consider three hypothetical universes: 1. Nearly all your suffering is your fault; the result of God's wrath and/or the natural consequence of your own bad choices. 2. Most suffering is pointless. It has no meaning or benefit or blame; it just happens. 3. Suffering can be valuable. It is allowed by God because it achieves higher purposes; we as individuals , and the universe at large, are both better off because of the suffering. I agree with the authors, that universe #2 (if true) is better than universe #1. But universe #3 -- the universe actually described by Christianity -- is even better.

TrapLord_Rhodo 4y ago
>Christianity says that far from suffering always being a punishment from God for bad behavior. Besides, you know... Hell, lakes of sulfur and eternal damnation.
- jondeval 4y ago
  > Besides, you know... For those interested in knowing the actual Christian teaching on the topic of hell, just be aware that this comment is completely incorrect.
  - mbreese 4y ago
    For those looking to find a definitive “actual” teaching on hell (or any topic) in Christianity, just be aware, it will take a while. There are a lot of denominations, each with many differing takes on hell. The above comment is reflective of one such interpretation of hell. Not an exclusive interpretation, but still a valid one.
    - jondeval 4y ago
      > Not an exclusive interpretation, but still a valid one. This is only technically true in the sense that the weakest straw man still gets a seat at the table. My comment is directed only to people who would be interested in investigating this topic with a sense of proportion. If you bring a sense of proportion to the investigation you will rule out fringe theologies and converge on a Christian teaching that looks nothing like the original canard.
      - mbreese 4y ago
        My point is that there is no one Christian teaching. I know many people who believe in the literal fire and brimstone definition of Hell who are devout Christians. Trying to claim there is one “true” interpretation and all others are fringe is folly. What is true to one group is a cult belief to another. If you want to claim that your Christian beliefs don't include that definition of hell, you’d have a much better argument. Just don’t claim you speak for all Christians…