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I have thought about this. I think it's a two part issue. One is a timing concern. The timing is critical on the shinkansen and waiting for people to go find an

by ehnto 4y ago

I have thought about this. I think it's a two part issue. One is a timing concern. The timing is critical on the shinkansen and waiting for people to go find and organize their bikes from another carriage would add time to boarding and departure. The other is application in general. It would help travellers I think, but the Shinkansen is a intercity service more akin to an intercity flight. I am not sure how common it would be to have a bicycle move between cities, rather than say rolling luggage. Also thinking of the reduced capacity and increased chaos of the trains should you add bicycles to the general carriages. Lastly, affordances for bikes are pretty good in most other ways, you could probably keep a cheap bike either side of your common stops. I would love to hear if people actually do this.

midoridensha 4y ago
People do bring bikes on trains in Japan. The catch is that the bike must be in a bag. Many times, people use folding bicycles for journeys like this, because those bikes can be folded down into very small dimensions, no bigger than a small suitcase. For full-size bikes, those are allowed too, but must be in a bag and disassembled. People don't do this so often because it's a PITA (and is still cumbersome even when disassembled), but it is an option.
- ehnto 4y ago
  I think this limits the impact of a loose bicycle on a train to the point where it is just luggage again. Where I live we can take bicycles on trains, and you can really only get two or three cyclists into a carriage before it becomes messy chaos. For our trains, cyclists can use the spot reserved for wheelchairs if there isn't one on board. If you need to get off and your bike is underneath other peoples it is a mess. Most people just stand with their bikes, and again if you got on in the wrong order it's a real pain to get a bike through the crowd. Bikes fall over all the time, and we take up a large amount of room. The shinkansen lines are different in that you book a seat, so I suppose they could have dedicated cycle storeage near the exit of the shinkansen, that you have to book with your ticket.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    "Messy chaos" won't work on the shinkansen: the train only stops very briefly at the station for boarding and disembarking. What you're describing in your country would never be tolerated. My understanding is that you can bring a bike (in a bag, disassembled) on board, and stow it near the end of the car behind the seats, but I've never tried it, nor have I seen it (but I've only ridden a handful of times so I'm no expert).
    - lmm 4y ago
      > My understanding is that you can bring a bike (in a bag, disassembled) on board, and stow it near the end of the car behind the seats, but I've never tried it, nor have I seen it (but I've only ridden a handful of times so I'm no expert). You can; on the busier lines you have to book the specific seats at the end of the carriages near the luggage space. It's better than nothing but it's a lot of faff.
INTPenis 4y ago
That's an interesting point. Timing isn't as important here in Sweden, but I can take my bike on the train. I've taken my bike on trains in Denmark, Germany and Sweden. And yeah sure it's off by a few minutes usually, sometimes by more than that. But I enjoy the freedom and laid back attitude more than extreme punctuality. I just realized this.
- heavenlyblue 4y ago
  Does Sweden have over-utilized railway capacity though? The punctuality matters in systems which are close to their critical operation limit. One delay here will slowly propagate across everywhere in the network. You need slack in the system for lateness to work with it.
  - INTPenis 4y ago
    Oh it propagates here too, I'm in the south west. I just find that I'd rather be able to take my bike on the train than to have it be punctual. If that's the trade off here. I understand it's not that simple due to the load on the system and all but I'm just saying, this made me realize that I'd rather have a late train with freedom than a punctual train with no freedom. I'm not just a bicyclist, I'm also a pet owner. Swedish trains are very generous regarding pets. Especially Öresundståg, the commuter trains of the south and south west. While in Denmark they are very strict suddenly, requiring even the smallest dog to be crated in the bicycle area.
    - Symbiote 4y ago
      You can take your dog on trains in Denmark, but if you don't have a bag/cage you need to buy the dog a ticket: https://www.dsb.dk/rejsende/hunde/ https://www.dsb.dk/rejsende/hunde/ (A Swedish friend who lives here in Copenhagen says in practise, Danish train/bus staff are much less likely to actually enforce the rule than Swedish staff, so it's better here.)
logifail 4y ago
> The timing is critical on the shinkansen Why? Is this about needing to be on time primarily because there's a reputation to maintain, or would bad things happen if one runs late?
- markdown 4y ago
  Because everyone wants to arrive on time.
  - logifail 4y ago
    > Because everyone wants to arrive on time I don't believe this requirement is specific to the shinkansen, to Japan, or even to travelling by train.
    - ehnto 4y ago
      Maybe you're trying to find a firm technical requirement for such tight timing, but they don't need one. In a sense the above comment is right, they (JR) just want it. One of their goals is to strive for such efficiency and punctuality so that the service is better overall, and so in your original comment I guess the answer is both that things would fall apart if the timing got messed up, and also that it's part of the reputation and one of the goals of their service. It's worth noting that JR is a series of privatized companies, which is notable because they're profitable as well. I imagine efficiency plays a pretty big role in that too.
      - logifail 4y ago
        > Maybe you're trying to find a firm technical requirement for such tight timing, but they don't need one. In a sense the above comment is right, they (JR) just want it. What happens if someone in a wheelchair wants to travel? > One of their goals is to strive for such efficiency and punctuality so that the service is better overall [..] Well, unless you happen to want to travel with a bicycle, that is. Punctuality is great, but punctuality above all else can't help but have consequences, and some of those might be quite significant negatives for some travellers. > It's worth noting that JR is a series of privatized companies, which is notable because they're profitable as well No snark intended, and I know very little about Japan or its railways, but as with so many things, if you can persuade someone else to pay for the construction of your infrastructure then profitability is significantly easier: "The costs for construction of new high-speed railway (except Chuo Shinkansen which is mainly paid by JR Central) are shared by national government and local governments along the line. National government pays 2/3 of construction costs, local governments bear the rest of it." ( https://www.mlit.go.jp/kokusai/itf/policy_001.html https://www.mlit.go.jp/kokusai/itf/policy_001.html )

by ehnto 4y ago

midoridensha 4y ago

People do bring bikes on trains in Japan. The catch is that the bike must be in a bag. Many times, people use folding bicycles for journeys like this, because those bikes can be folded down into very small dimensions, no bigger than a small suitcase. For full-size bikes, those are allowed too, but must be in a bag and disassembled. People don't do this so often because it's a PITA (and is still cumbersome even when disassembled), but it is an option.

ehnto 4y ago
I think this limits the impact of a loose bicycle on a train to the point where it is just luggage again. Where I live we can take bicycles on trains, and you can really only get two or three cyclists into a carriage before it becomes messy chaos. For our trains, cyclists can use the spot reserved for wheelchairs if there isn't one on board. If you need to get off and your bike is underneath other peoples it is a mess. Most people just stand with their bikes, and again if you got on in the wrong order it's a real pain to get a bike through the crowd. Bikes fall over all the time, and we take up a large amount of room. The shinkansen lines are different in that you book a seat, so I suppose they could have dedicated cycle storeage near the exit of the shinkansen, that you have to book with your ticket.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  "Messy chaos" won't work on the shinkansen: the train only stops very briefly at the station for boarding and disembarking. What you're describing in your country would never be tolerated. My understanding is that you can bring a bike (in a bag, disassembled) on board, and stow it near the end of the car behind the seats, but I've never tried it, nor have I seen it (but I've only ridden a handful of times so I'm no expert).
  - lmm 4y ago
    > My understanding is that you can bring a bike (in a bag, disassembled) on board, and stow it near the end of the car behind the seats, but I've never tried it, nor have I seen it (but I've only ridden a handful of times so I'm no expert). You can; on the busier lines you have to book the specific seats at the end of the carriages near the luggage space. It's better than nothing but it's a lot of faff.

INTPenis 4y ago

That's an interesting point. Timing isn't as important here in Sweden, but I can take my bike on the train. I've taken my bike on trains in Denmark, Germany and Sweden. And yeah sure it's off by a few minutes usually, sometimes by more than that. But I enjoy the freedom and laid back attitude more than extreme punctuality. I just realized this.

heavenlyblue 4y ago
Does Sweden have over-utilized railway capacity though? The punctuality matters in systems which are close to their critical operation limit. One delay here will slowly propagate across everywhere in the network. You need slack in the system for lateness to work with it.
- INTPenis 4y ago
  Oh it propagates here too, I'm in the south west. I just find that I'd rather be able to take my bike on the train than to have it be punctual. If that's the trade off here. I understand it's not that simple due to the load on the system and all but I'm just saying, this made me realize that I'd rather have a late train with freedom than a punctual train with no freedom. I'm not just a bicyclist, I'm also a pet owner. Swedish trains are very generous regarding pets. Especially Öresundståg, the commuter trains of the south and south west. While in Denmark they are very strict suddenly, requiring even the smallest dog to be crated in the bicycle area.
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    You can take your dog on trains in Denmark, but if you don't have a bag/cage you need to buy the dog a ticket: https://www.dsb.dk/rejsende/hunde/ https://www.dsb.dk/rejsende/hunde/ (A Swedish friend who lives here in Copenhagen says in practise, Danish train/bus staff are much less likely to actually enforce the rule than Swedish staff, so it's better here.)

logifail 4y ago

> The timing is critical on the shinkansen Why? Is this about needing to be on time primarily because there's a reputation to maintain, or would bad things happen if one runs late?

markdown 4y ago
Because everyone wants to arrive on time.
- logifail 4y ago
  > Because everyone wants to arrive on time I don't believe this requirement is specific to the shinkansen, to Japan, or even to travelling by train.
  - ehnto 4y ago
    Maybe you're trying to find a firm technical requirement for such tight timing, but they don't need one. In a sense the above comment is right, they (JR) just want it. One of their goals is to strive for such efficiency and punctuality so that the service is better overall, and so in your original comment I guess the answer is both that things would fall apart if the timing got messed up, and also that it's part of the reputation and one of the goals of their service. It's worth noting that JR is a series of privatized companies, which is notable because they're profitable as well. I imagine efficiency plays a pretty big role in that too.
    - logifail 4y ago
      > Maybe you're trying to find a firm technical requirement for such tight timing, but they don't need one. In a sense the above comment is right, they (JR) just want it. What happens if someone in a wheelchair wants to travel? > One of their goals is to strive for such efficiency and punctuality so that the service is better overall [..] Well, unless you happen to want to travel with a bicycle, that is. Punctuality is great, but punctuality above all else can't help but have consequences, and some of those might be quite significant negatives for some travellers. > It's worth noting that JR is a series of privatized companies, which is notable because they're profitable as well No snark intended, and I know very little about Japan or its railways, but as with so many things, if you can persuade someone else to pay for the construction of your infrastructure then profitability is significantly easier: "The costs for construction of new high-speed railway (except Chuo Shinkansen which is mainly paid by JR Central) are shared by national government and local governments along the line. National government pays 2/3 of construction costs, local governments bear the rest of it." ( https://www.mlit.go.jp/kokusai/itf/policy_001.html https://www.mlit.go.jp/kokusai/itf/policy_001.html )