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My wife and I use Briar for household communication because of subsidiarity rather than any direct privacy concerns. Out of all the messenger projects that we'v

My wife and I use Briar for household communication because of subsidiarity rather than any direct privacy concerns. Out of all the messenger projects that we've tried, Briar actually works for local communication. It's actually instant messaging without any client hiccups or latency (looking at you, Signal). We've tried a ton of other options, but we keep ending up back at Briar. There are points of UX friction in the name of good opsec that are inconvenient but totally understandable given the project goals. The big ones being that you have to manually login after any reboots and notifications are intentionally sparse, so good luck using a smartwatch for reading or replying. Otherwise, the forums and blogs are great for managing household projects, IM is a dream, and as a bonus, anyone willing to install and use it probably has a large enough values overlap that we can use it as a social pre-filter for close friends. The only other option that has come even remotely close to being as functional as Briar is DeltaChat. The only issue that stops us from using DeltaChat (or email in general) is that we both have email hosting in Europe while we live in the US, so neither of us, being frugal in principal, wants to send information to Europe and back in order to tell the person 100 ft away to come help bring in the groceries.

rand0mx1 4y ago
You may like this app Meshenger (P2P Voice- and video phone App.) https://f-droid.org/packages/d.d.meshenger/ https://f-droid.org/packages/d.d.meshenger/
- hanniabu 4y ago
  Sean Connery approves
  - anon400232 4y ago
    "I'll take anal bum cover for $7000." -fake Sean Connery on SNL Jeopardy, selecting from the "An Album Cover" category
KennyBlanken 4y ago
> It's actually instant messaging without any client hiccups or latency (looking at you, Signal). This is almost certainly poor wifi / cell coverage, not Signal having "hiccups" or "latency." I routinely have real-time texting conversations with friends and I can see the messages are "seen" almost instantaneously, half-way across the US. I've also never had an issue with voice chat. It's been flawless, and very high quality audio. As good or better than Facetime. Also, unlike Briar, Signal is available for iOS, which is superior if you care about digital privacy, allowing users to disable a slew of data reporting (particularly location data) back to Apple that Android forces you to give Google.
- Tijdreiziger 4y ago
  Can you give more info on the data reporting options that we should be disabling?
- Semaphor 4y ago
  > This is almost certainly poor wifi / cell coverage, not Signal having "hiccups" or "latency." Signal is very finicky about that, though. I have friends who prefer Whatsapp simply because they don’t have to worry about connection stability. With Signal, you sometimes don’t even know if messages actually arrived or not.
  - simfree 4y ago
    Especially on Signal Desktop, its more reliable to close the app and reopen it than wait for it to reconnect to the server. Meanwhile Element reconnects to Matrix super quick...
    - brokenmachine 4y ago
      Element + Matrix. *chefs kiss*
  - dfc 4y ago
    I have never had the message delivery status icon be different than reality. Sometimes, rarely, things don't show as delivered for some time. But I have never had anyone tell me the message was delivered when the checkmark said otherwise. Have you had the checkmark be inaccurate?
thaumasiotes 4y ago
> The only issue that stops us from using DeltaChat (or email in general) is that we both have email hosting in Europe while we live in the US, so neither of us, being frugal in principal, wants to send information to Europe and back in order to tell the person 100 ft away to come help bring in the groceries. The Briar page seems to suggest messages are routed through Tor: > Briar uses the Tor network to prevent eavesdroppers from learning which users are talking to each other. How different is that?
- mcculley 4y ago
  The page says that messages are also transported via wifi and Bluetooth. Presumably, the app can send messages locally when they are 100 feet away.
kybernetikos 4y ago
Seems like Briar might be good for messaging to young kids. I could give them an old phone without a sim card, and run Briar on it.
- andai 4y ago
  What is your motivation for the "without a sim card" part? If the phone is connected to Wifi then they're either at home or at school--isn't the point being able to reach them no matter where they are? I'm not too keen on my kids being on the internet all day. In my case the opposite solution seems better, a dumbphone so I can reach them, but TikTok can't.
  - kybernetikos 4y ago
    They're mainly not online, and not signed up to online services, but it'd still be nice to be able to message the rest of the family, listen to music, share photos, etc.
  - prmoustache 4y ago
    Shared custody? I like being able to communicate, send/receive pictures/videos, do videocalls with my daughters when they are in their mother's place without having to ask her to share her phone for that. I am actually travelling 10 thousands kilometers away from them for a month, having an instant messaging app is a saver for both me and my daughters. We are currently using deltachat for this with email accounts I set up for them. They don't even have access to these accounts outside of deltachat yet and they can't be reached by others like they would with whatsapp.
- antisocialist 4y ago
  Awesome idea. You'd have no idea how many accounts they have, who they're talking to, and about what. Perfect privacy!
O__________O 4y ago
If an adversary is within bluetooth range of a Briar user what if any data or meta data they are able to gain? For example, say there is a protest and law enforcement is running devices to capture the Briar data and meta data, what would they be able to record and would it be possible to playback (decrypt) the data at a later point if they were able to capture keys; my understanding is Signal counters playback attacks, but lacks P2P Bluetooth support. Worth noting that Briar’s Bluetooth support appears to forward data, but not in real-time, so it’s technically not a mesh network; though not sure what you would call what it supports, maybe an asynchronous network?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
GTP 4y ago
> we both have email hosting in Europe If this is for privacy reasons, I have to point it out that the GDPR protects the data of people that are physically in the EU. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not sure this applies to non-EU citizens that just happen to deposit some of their data in the EU without being physically here. Maybe you should delve in this corner case deeper, or if you did, I'm curious to know the answer.
- auditor_3d 4y ago
  He probably uses protonmail
ziggypieman 4y ago
I'd like to hear more how you use forums/blogs for managing household projects. > we both have email hosting in Europe while we live in the US, so neither of us, being frugal in principal, wants to send information to Europe and back in order to tell the person 100 ft away to come help bring in the groceries. I like the frugality in principle. However, AFAICT, Briar uses Tor onion services, Bluetooth or WiFi to communicate. Does using Tor onion services for out-the-home IM violate the principle?

rand0mx1 4y ago

You may like this app Meshenger (P2P Voice- and video phone App.) https://f-droid.org/packages/d.d.meshenger/ https://f-droid.org/packages/d.d.meshenger/

hanniabu 4y ago
Sean Connery approves
- anon400232 4y ago
  "I'll take anal bum cover for $7000." -fake Sean Connery on SNL Jeopardy, selecting from the "An Album Cover" category

KennyBlanken 4y ago

> It's actually instant messaging without any client hiccups or latency (looking at you, Signal). This is almost certainly poor wifi / cell coverage, not Signal having "hiccups" or "latency." I routinely have real-time texting conversations with friends and I can see the messages are "seen" almost instantaneously, half-way across the US. I've also never had an issue with voice chat. It's been flawless, and very high quality audio. As good or better than Facetime. Also, unlike Briar, Signal is available for iOS, which is superior if you care about digital privacy, allowing users to disable a slew of data reporting (particularly location data) back to Apple that Android forces you to give Google.

Tijdreiziger 4y ago
Can you give more info on the data reporting options that we should be disabling?
Semaphor 4y ago
> This is almost certainly poor wifi / cell coverage, not Signal having "hiccups" or "latency." Signal is very finicky about that, though. I have friends who prefer Whatsapp simply because they don’t have to worry about connection stability. With Signal, you sometimes don’t even know if messages actually arrived or not.
- simfree 4y ago
  Especially on Signal Desktop, its more reliable to close the app and reopen it than wait for it to reconnect to the server. Meanwhile Element reconnects to Matrix super quick...
  - brokenmachine 4y ago
    Element + Matrix. *chefs kiss*
- dfc 4y ago
  I have never had the message delivery status icon be different than reality. Sometimes, rarely, things don't show as delivered for some time. But I have never had anyone tell me the message was delivered when the checkmark said otherwise. Have you had the checkmark be inaccurate?

thaumasiotes 4y ago

> The only issue that stops us from using DeltaChat (or email in general) is that we both have email hosting in Europe while we live in the US, so neither of us, being frugal in principal, wants to send information to Europe and back in order to tell the person 100 ft away to come help bring in the groceries. The Briar page seems to suggest messages are routed through Tor: > Briar uses the Tor network to prevent eavesdroppers from learning which users are talking to each other. How different is that?

mcculley 4y ago
The page says that messages are also transported via wifi and Bluetooth. Presumably, the app can send messages locally when they are 100 feet away.

kybernetikos 4y ago

Seems like Briar might be good for messaging to young kids. I could give them an old phone without a sim card, and run Briar on it.

andai 4y ago
What is your motivation for the "without a sim card" part? If the phone is connected to Wifi then they're either at home or at school--isn't the point being able to reach them no matter where they are? I'm not too keen on my kids being on the internet all day. In my case the opposite solution seems better, a dumbphone so I can reach them, but TikTok can't.
- kybernetikos 4y ago
  They're mainly not online, and not signed up to online services, but it'd still be nice to be able to message the rest of the family, listen to music, share photos, etc.
- prmoustache 4y ago
  Shared custody? I like being able to communicate, send/receive pictures/videos, do videocalls with my daughters when they are in their mother's place without having to ask her to share her phone for that. I am actually travelling 10 thousands kilometers away from them for a month, having an instant messaging app is a saver for both me and my daughters. We are currently using deltachat for this with email accounts I set up for them. They don't even have access to these accounts outside of deltachat yet and they can't be reached by others like they would with whatsapp.
antisocialist 4y ago
Awesome idea. You'd have no idea how many accounts they have, who they're talking to, and about what. Perfect privacy!

O__________O 4y ago

If an adversary is within bluetooth range of a Briar user what if any data or meta data they are able to gain? For example, say there is a protest and law enforcement is running devices to capture the Briar data and meta data, what would they be able to record and would it be possible to playback (decrypt) the data at a later point if they were able to capture keys; my understanding is Signal counters playback attacks, but lacks P2P Bluetooth support. Worth noting that Briar’s Bluetooth support appears to forward data, but not in real-time, so it’s technically not a mesh network; though not sure what you would call what it supports, maybe an asynchronous network?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

GTP 4y ago

> we both have email hosting in Europe If this is for privacy reasons, I have to point it out that the GDPR protects the data of people that are physically in the EU. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not sure this applies to non-EU citizens that just happen to deposit some of their data in the EU without being physically here. Maybe you should delve in this corner case deeper, or if you did, I'm curious to know the answer.

auditor_3d 4y ago
He probably uses protonmail

ziggypieman 4y ago

I'd like to hear more how you use forums/blogs for managing household projects. > we both have email hosting in Europe while we live in the US, so neither of us, being frugal in principal, wants to send information to Europe and back in order to tell the person 100 ft away to come help bring in the groceries. I like the frugality in principle. However, AFAICT, Briar uses Tor onion services, Bluetooth or WiFi to communicate. Does using Tor onion services for out-the-home IM violate the principle?