5 ms·

> They're the most advanced nation on the planet in terms of industrial espionage. Citation needed. (Especially given that the other two contenders are the US

> They're the most advanced nation on the planet in terms of industrial espionage. Citation needed. (Especially given that the other two contenders are the US and China)

busterarm 4y ago
https://www.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espionage-economy-germany-russia-china-business https://www.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espio... https://www.lawfareblog.com/french-espionage https://www.lawfareblog.com/french-espionage https://www.cbsnews.com/news/wikileaks-france-leads-russia-china-in-industrial-spying-in-europe/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/wikileaks-france-leads-russia-c... This is pretty widely known. Especially in the Defense industry and their world class industrial espionage skill goes all the way back to the eighteenth century. It's not "citation needed", you're just ignorant of history.
- hikingsimulator 4y ago
  Deleted my message to your og message because you posted this here, but you're basically basing your whole argument on one person in a cable leak. It's not much of a base.
  - busterarm 4y ago
    Lol for you to truly believe this. German officials were still complaining about French spying in the wikileaks cables. France has partically cornered the market on datacenter infrastructure (everything from the racks down...somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 is made by French companies). If you think 300+ years of strategy/tradecraft suddenly ceased functioning 40 years ago (and because why?) you'd be sorely mistaken. It's more likely the case that manned airframe deveopment has been fairly stagnant around the world since the 80s for political/budget reasions (which is true), so you haven't been able to see their blatant wins. France has seemed to keep up with the rest of world in UAV development (Parrot) despite much less investment....
    - hikingsimulator 4y ago
      That's not a sound argument, neither a sourced one. Let's take your example, Parrot, it's not because a company can do as good with less than it means it is stolen technology. Has the world over stolen the screw tech in the US technology tree because I can buy it at the hardware store for a cent when one is billed $40 to the US army? That's a wild line of reasoning. [1] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-07-30-vw-18804-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-07-30-vw-18804-...
      - busterarm 4y ago
        I love how people take a throwaway line that's practically an afterthought and discard the bits about their 300+ years of experience doing exactly this. Those bits are well documented and you can go read about them with a cursory google search. But no, my reasoning is WiLd AnD cRaZy. I would say that given France's history, you would have to show me that Parrot _hasn't_ benefited from some level of industrial espionage.
        hikingsimulator 4y ago
        Asking someone to prove a negative is a terrible way to argue. The French government as we know it did not exist 300 years ago, neither did the modern industrial age.
    - palata 4y ago
      Are you suggesting that Parrot has been benefiting from industrial espionage? That's absolutely ridiculous. First, everyone is way behind DJI, that's just a fact. You can buy a DJI drone, open it, inspect it, and still not be able to do a perfect alternative at the same price. Second, some UAV autopilots were written by a couple engineers more than a decade ago, and today there are pretty advanced open source autopilots, with open source protocols and open source apps to control them. I don't know about your other claims, but given the UAV one, I must now doubt them.
  - defrost 4y ago
    Easy enough to widen the base. It was almost an open secret that French Intelligence bugged and monitored first class (and elsewhere) of the TransAtlantic Concorde flights between Europe and the US (and elsewhere). This was, for many years, the prestige fastest travel between the major powers and a honeypot of loose lips by diplomats, politicians, and even senor military staff from many nations. [1] https://www.theregister.com/2015/06/09/french_spied_concorde_passengers/ https://www.theregister.com/2015/06/09/french_spied_concorde...
    - hikingsimulator 4y ago
      There is a lot of "could", "might", "reportedly", and "plausible" in this article. I.e. suppositions and assumptions. Nothing backed up. Now, it's a standard practice in security to not discuss security issues and confidential info in a public space like a plane. I'd not be surprised the French goverment would bug the Concorde, but it does not imply at all the supposed extent, ruthlessness and far-reach that the OG poster implies.
      - defrost 4y ago
        > but it does not imply at all the supposed extent, ruthlessness and far-reach thar the OG poster implies. Well perhaps a better understanding of Cold War politics might peel back the cover on how ruthless the French can be. It's a fact that the bulk of the Cold War weapons grade ore was sourced from parts of Africa that were former | current French | Belgian colonies and satelite states, it's well recorded the ongoing destabilisation of local democratic Governments that kept effective control of mineral operations in the hands of principally French companies acting as US proxies in an extensive (at the time) unreported war of resource domination and control. What the French did in New Zealand, planting bombs and killing civilian anti nuclear demonstrators [1] pales in comparison to their actions in Africa and elsewhere. > The sinking of Rainbow Warrior, codenamed Opération Satanique, was a state-sponsored terrorist bombing by the "action" branch of the French foreign intelligence services, the Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure (DGSE), carried out on 10 July 1985. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
  - bigDinosaur 4y ago
    It's a dramatically better base than 99% of opinions on this.
  - busterarm 4y ago
    The other funny thing is that France being a leading industrial espionage power was also part of the Snowden leaks, which means the NSA believes that this is true, as recently as a decade ago. I don't think you could find a better citation.
    - PoignardAzur 4y ago
      There's a pretty big gap between "a leading industrial espionage power" and "the most advanced nation on the planet in terms of industrial espionage." Especially since, again, the Snowden leaks exposed that the NSA was a pretty strong contender for the title.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Where do they rank in terms of being an industrial power? If they’re spying and that’s the best outcome they can muster…I don’t blame people for assuming they’re not peak-spying.
  - busterarm 4y ago
    They're the world's leading nation (or possibly #2) at manufacturing datacenter infrastructure (by sales volume).
  - orangepurple 4y ago
    Ever heard of Dassault? Solidworks? Airbus?
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      I have. (Note that the first two you listed are not two different things, or to the extent they are, the second one is US, continuing to be based just down the road in MA, USA).
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - orangepurple 4y ago
        I did not know Solidworks is based out of MA. I wonder how their dev teams are split
  - Barrin92 4y ago
    Very high? France is the third largest military industrial exporter in the world after the US and Russia. The Ariane is Europe's heavy lift rocket.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      They're the 8th largest manufacturing country in the world. Is that industrial superpower territory? I don't think so. Italy out-manufacturers them by about 10%.
Hnrobert42 4y ago
I have not heard of the U.S. as a contender for industrial espionage. Traditional espionage sure, but not for competitive advantage. Do know of any sources for info about that?
- Kukumber 4y ago
  You must be joking right The US controls the global economy, every transactions made in $ are sniffed and tracked, they know about your trade secrets And if you dare escape from their watchdog, they'll let you know illico presto [1] (this is also why i believe that cryptocurrencies fad is a FED project, and Satoshi is one of their codename) One of my biggest regret is not saving the article i read on that matter that went into the details on why, including how they leverage their army of lawyers to make sure you comply, or it was a book, it's sad that i forgot.., read a little bit about Alstom, it's very shady It's also part of the reason why they are scared about BRICs moving away from the dollar and adopting the YUAN and its digital version [1] - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2003/feb/16/iraq.theeuro https://www.theguardian.com/business/2003/feb/16/iraq.theeur... EDIT: Some documentation on the matter: https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/how-the-nsa-spies-on-international-bank-transactions-a-922430.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/how-the-nsa-spies...
  - Hnrobert42 4y ago
    Hmm, I still don’t see any industrial espionage - governments spying on other countries’ businesses in order to give secret IP to their own industrial leaders. This is distinct from gathering intel on business to inform national security decisions. Your comment seems like a general distrust of the US intel collection based on a mist of evidence and conspiracy theory.
    - Kukumber 4y ago
      you don't see therefore they don't do? i don't think there is much to argue here, let's move on
- PoignardAzur 4y ago

> They're the most advanced nation on the planet in terms of industrial espionage. Citation needed. (Especially given that the other two contenders are the US and China)

busterarm 4y ago

https://www.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espionage-economy-germany-russia-china-business https://www.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espio... https://www.lawfareblog.com/french-espionage https://www.lawfareblog.com/french-espionage https://www.cbsnews.com/news/wikileaks-france-leads-russia-china-in-industrial-spying-in-europe/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/wikileaks-france-leads-russia-c... This is pretty widely known. Especially in the Defense industry and their world class industrial espionage skill goes all the way back to the eighteenth century. It's not "citation needed", you're just ignorant of history.

hikingsimulator 4y ago
Deleted my message to your og message because you posted this here, but you're basically basing your whole argument on one person in a cable leak. It's not much of a base.
- busterarm 4y ago
  Lol for you to truly believe this. German officials were still complaining about French spying in the wikileaks cables. France has partically cornered the market on datacenter infrastructure (everything from the racks down...somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 is made by French companies). If you think 300+ years of strategy/tradecraft suddenly ceased functioning 40 years ago (and because why?) you'd be sorely mistaken. It's more likely the case that manned airframe deveopment has been fairly stagnant around the world since the 80s for political/budget reasions (which is true), so you haven't been able to see their blatant wins. France has seemed to keep up with the rest of world in UAV development (Parrot) despite much less investment....
  - hikingsimulator 4y ago
    That's not a sound argument, neither a sourced one. Let's take your example, Parrot, it's not because a company can do as good with less than it means it is stolen technology. Has the world over stolen the screw tech in the US technology tree because I can buy it at the hardware store for a cent when one is billed $40 to the US army? That's a wild line of reasoning. [1] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-07-30-vw-18804-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-07-30-vw-18804-...
    - busterarm 4y ago
      I love how people take a throwaway line that's practically an afterthought and discard the bits about their 300+ years of experience doing exactly this. Those bits are well documented and you can go read about them with a cursory google search. But no, my reasoning is WiLd AnD cRaZy. I would say that given France's history, you would have to show me that Parrot _hasn't_ benefited from some level of industrial espionage.
      - hikingsimulator 4y ago
        Asking someone to prove a negative is a terrible way to argue. The French government as we know it did not exist 300 years ago, neither did the modern industrial age.
  - palata 4y ago
    Are you suggesting that Parrot has been benefiting from industrial espionage? That's absolutely ridiculous. First, everyone is way behind DJI, that's just a fact. You can buy a DJI drone, open it, inspect it, and still not be able to do a perfect alternative at the same price. Second, some UAV autopilots were written by a couple engineers more than a decade ago, and today there are pretty advanced open source autopilots, with open source protocols and open source apps to control them. I don't know about your other claims, but given the UAV one, I must now doubt them.
- defrost 4y ago
  Easy enough to widen the base. It was almost an open secret that French Intelligence bugged and monitored first class (and elsewhere) of the TransAtlantic Concorde flights between Europe and the US (and elsewhere). This was, for many years, the prestige fastest travel between the major powers and a honeypot of loose lips by diplomats, politicians, and even senor military staff from many nations. [1] https://www.theregister.com/2015/06/09/french_spied_concorde_passengers/ https://www.theregister.com/2015/06/09/french_spied_concorde...
  - hikingsimulator 4y ago
    There is a lot of "could", "might", "reportedly", and "plausible" in this article. I.e. suppositions and assumptions. Nothing backed up. Now, it's a standard practice in security to not discuss security issues and confidential info in a public space like a plane. I'd not be surprised the French goverment would bug the Concorde, but it does not imply at all the supposed extent, ruthlessness and far-reach that the OG poster implies.
    - defrost 4y ago
      > but it does not imply at all the supposed extent, ruthlessness and far-reach thar the OG poster implies. Well perhaps a better understanding of Cold War politics might peel back the cover on how ruthless the French can be. It's a fact that the bulk of the Cold War weapons grade ore was sourced from parts of Africa that were former | current French | Belgian colonies and satelite states, it's well recorded the ongoing destabilisation of local democratic Governments that kept effective control of mineral operations in the hands of principally French companies acting as US proxies in an extensive (at the time) unreported war of resource domination and control. What the French did in New Zealand, planting bombs and killing civilian anti nuclear demonstrators [1] pales in comparison to their actions in Africa and elsewhere. > The sinking of Rainbow Warrior, codenamed Opération Satanique, was a state-sponsored terrorist bombing by the "action" branch of the French foreign intelligence services, the Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure (DGSE), carried out on 10 July 1985. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
- bigDinosaur 4y ago
  It's a dramatically better base than 99% of opinions on this.
- busterarm 4y ago
  The other funny thing is that France being a leading industrial espionage power was also part of the Snowden leaks, which means the NSA believes that this is true, as recently as a decade ago. I don't think you could find a better citation.
  - PoignardAzur 4y ago
    There's a pretty big gap between "a leading industrial espionage power" and "the most advanced nation on the planet in terms of industrial espionage." Especially since, again, the Snowden leaks exposed that the NSA was a pretty strong contender for the title.
sokoloff 4y ago
Where do they rank in terms of being an industrial power? If they’re spying and that’s the best outcome they can muster…I don’t blame people for assuming they’re not peak-spying.
- busterarm 4y ago
  They're the world's leading nation (or possibly #2) at manufacturing datacenter infrastructure (by sales volume).
- orangepurple 4y ago
  Ever heard of Dassault? Solidworks? Airbus?
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    I have. (Note that the first two you listed are not two different things, or to the extent they are, the second one is US, continuing to be based just down the road in MA, USA).
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - orangepurple 4y ago
      I did not know Solidworks is based out of MA. I wonder how their dev teams are split
- Barrin92 4y ago
  Very high? France is the third largest military industrial exporter in the world after the US and Russia. The Ariane is Europe's heavy lift rocket.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    They're the 8th largest manufacturing country in the world. Is that industrial superpower territory? I don't think so. Italy out-manufacturers them by about 10%.

Hnrobert42 4y ago

I have not heard of the U.S. as a contender for industrial espionage. Traditional espionage sure, but not for competitive advantage. Do know of any sources for info about that?

Kukumber 4y ago
You must be joking right The US controls the global economy, every transactions made in $ are sniffed and tracked, they know about your trade secrets And if you dare escape from their watchdog, they'll let you know illico presto [1] (this is also why i believe that cryptocurrencies fad is a FED project, and Satoshi is one of their codename) One of my biggest regret is not saving the article i read on that matter that went into the details on why, including how they leverage their army of lawyers to make sure you comply, or it was a book, it's sad that i forgot.., read a little bit about Alstom, it's very shady It's also part of the reason why they are scared about BRICs moving away from the dollar and adopting the YUAN and its digital version [1] - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2003/feb/16/iraq.theeuro https://www.theguardian.com/business/2003/feb/16/iraq.theeur... EDIT: Some documentation on the matter: https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/how-the-nsa-spies-on-international-bank-transactions-a-922430.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/how-the-nsa-spies...
- Hnrobert42 4y ago
  Hmm, I still don’t see any industrial espionage - governments spying on other countries’ businesses in order to give secret IP to their own industrial leaders. This is distinct from gathering intel on business to inform national security decisions. Your comment seems like a general distrust of the US intel collection based on a mist of evidence and conspiracy theory.
  - Kukumber 4y ago
    you don't see therefore they don't do? i don't think there is much to argue here, let's move on
PoignardAzur 4y ago