7 ms·

Loads of devs I’ve spoken to, from junior to principal level, absolutely love Github Copilot though. Don’t know who is paying it for them, nor if Kite was signi

Loads of devs I’ve spoken to, from junior to principal level, absolutely love Github Copilot though. Don’t know who is paying it for them, nor if Kite was significantly worse, but I think that at least Copilot has a brilliant future ahead of it.

dreamyfigment 4y ago
I _love_ Copilot but the only reason I use it is because I qualify under their open source developers program, I just can't justify paying $10/month for it.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  How much do you love it, then? What would you pay, if it's less than $10/mo?
  - didibus 4y ago
    It saves a bit of time, but doesn't seem to make a difference on time to market of features, products, improvements or bug fixes. In my experience, it's a quality of life improvement, but the things that dictate actual time to market is bottlenecked by things that aren't solved by copilot, such as overall design, decision making, requirements gathering, code structure/architecture, solution ideation, user acceptance, infrastructure setup, etc. I think if it eventually could help with those other tasks, you'd see time to market gains, and that would start to make it really valuable.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
candiddevmike 4y ago
Until Microsoft grants Copilot users blanket protection over copyright claims from Copilot generated code, I wouldn't even think of touching it.
- epolanski 4y ago
  Same. Never ever I'm risking breaking copyright, and I also don't like Microsoft not including their own code in the model.
  - hirvi74 4y ago
    > I also don't like Microsoft not including their own code in the model From allegations I have read across the Internet, Microsoft might be doing those who use Copilot a favor.
- Jenk 4y ago
  We may well find out the answer to that when this lawsuit[0] concludes. [0]: https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/8/23446821/microsoft-openai-github-copilot-class-action-lawsuit-ai-copyright-violation-training-data https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/8/23446821/microsoft-openai...
  - candiddevmike 4y ago
    If Copilot generates the exact same code as the source, I don't see how that process could be exempt, it's like using the clipboard on your PC with extra steps.
    - nl 4y ago
      It can generate the same code, but generally won't.
      - drekipus 4y ago
        So Microsoft should provide blanket protections to the developers that use it?
        nl 4y ago
        No, for a number of reasons: 1) It's the code license that matters, and the depends on what license the code the developer is building is using 2) License compatibility is undecided (see eg the different views of Apache Foundation and FSF on the compatibility of ASF 2.0 and GPL) 3) It's easy for someone to deliberately produce code that violates a license. MS is a big target and you can bet license trolls would chase it on that. Probably more reasons, but there's a good start.
urthor 4y ago
It's interesting, the ones I've spoken to are extremely suspicious. "GitHub Copilot blocks your ability to learn." Is a common refrain. I don't see ANY industry-wide consensus on whether GitHub Copilot truly helps developers right now. The only scenario I can get anyone to agree on is generating templates. Aka, JSON or CSS files that you then edit.
- satvikpendem 4y ago
  I use it. It's good for boilerplate code or basically anything where you can avoid looking at the docs. For example, I was writing an ML training loop and it correctly filled in the rest of the function after I wrote the first few lines. The code is basically what's in the pytorch docs, just fit to my model and scenario.
- hanselot 4y ago
  The Internet blocks your ability to learn...
- throwaway675309 4y ago
  It doesn't block your ability to learn any more than any auto suggestion systems. But I guess it depends on what you value in terms of learning, for me, copilot allows me to focus on the larger architectural problems while not having to worry about the exact syntax of certain things (DSL query language, middleware express, typescript def annotations, etc). Every time I don't have to context switch to look up some technical errata in my browser is a complete win for me.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    I observed one guy become very resistant to reading the docs as they believed copilot obsoleted them. Programming in Ruby, the copilot suggestions will run but since you didn't read the docs you won't know that the output doesn't actually work or doesn't do what you think it does since it was intended for a different situation.
- nl 4y ago
  Everyone I've spoken to who has actually used it thinks it works extremely well. This includes pretty experienced developers. I've never heard anyone claim it blocks the ability to learn - if anything it's the opposite. Many people like how it shows you APIs you weren't aware of.
smohare 4y ago
jonas21 4y ago
Some well-known devs like Guido van Rossum and Andrej Karpathy are big fans as well [1]. [1] https://youtu.be/cdiD-9MMpb0?t=8723 https://youtu.be/cdiD-9MMpb0?t=8723
- throwaway2037 4y ago
  Please remember that Guido van Rossum is now employed by Microsoft. Yes, I am a fan of Guido van Rossum and his work, but I am always suspicious when famous people recommend their own company's products. It feels like excellent marketing/PR that is hard to resist.
  - arcturus17 4y ago
    What about Karpathy, nobody pays him in principle.
spookie 4y ago
Copilot is extremely shady, and everyone should refrain from paying for it until proven otherwise. Others have already pointed out the case as a reply.

dreamyfigment 4y ago

I _love_ Copilot but the only reason I use it is because I qualify under their open source developers program, I just can't justify paying $10/month for it.

robertlagrant 4y ago
How much do you love it, then? What would you pay, if it's less than $10/mo?
- didibus 4y ago
  It saves a bit of time, but doesn't seem to make a difference on time to market of features, products, improvements or bug fixes. In my experience, it's a quality of life improvement, but the things that dictate actual time to market is bottlenecked by things that aren't solved by copilot, such as overall design, decision making, requirements gathering, code structure/architecture, solution ideation, user acceptance, infrastructure setup, etc. I think if it eventually could help with those other tasks, you'd see time to market gains, and that would start to make it really valuable.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

candiddevmike 4y ago

Until Microsoft grants Copilot users blanket protection over copyright claims from Copilot generated code, I wouldn't even think of touching it.

epolanski 4y ago
Same. Never ever I'm risking breaking copyright, and I also don't like Microsoft not including their own code in the model.
- hirvi74 4y ago
  > I also don't like Microsoft not including their own code in the model From allegations I have read across the Internet, Microsoft might be doing those who use Copilot a favor.
Jenk 4y ago
We may well find out the answer to that when this lawsuit[0] concludes. [0]: https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/8/23446821/microsoft-openai-github-copilot-class-action-lawsuit-ai-copyright-violation-training-data https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/8/23446821/microsoft-openai...
- candiddevmike 4y ago
  If Copilot generates the exact same code as the source, I don't see how that process could be exempt, it's like using the clipboard on your PC with extra steps.
  - nl 4y ago
    It can generate the same code, but generally won't.
    - drekipus 4y ago
      So Microsoft should provide blanket protections to the developers that use it?
      - nl 4y ago
        No, for a number of reasons: 1) It's the code license that matters, and the depends on what license the code the developer is building is using 2) License compatibility is undecided (see eg the different views of Apache Foundation and FSF on the compatibility of ASF 2.0 and GPL) 3) It's easy for someone to deliberately produce code that violates a license. MS is a big target and you can bet license trolls would chase it on that. Probably more reasons, but there's a good start.

urthor 4y ago

It's interesting, the ones I've spoken to are extremely suspicious. "GitHub Copilot blocks your ability to learn." Is a common refrain. I don't see ANY industry-wide consensus on whether GitHub Copilot truly helps developers right now. The only scenario I can get anyone to agree on is generating templates. Aka, JSON or CSS files that you then edit.

satvikpendem 4y ago
I use it. It's good for boilerplate code or basically anything where you can avoid looking at the docs. For example, I was writing an ML training loop and it correctly filled in the rest of the function after I wrote the first few lines. The code is basically what's in the pytorch docs, just fit to my model and scenario.
hanselot 4y ago
The Internet blocks your ability to learn...
throwaway675309 4y ago
It doesn't block your ability to learn any more than any auto suggestion systems. But I guess it depends on what you value in terms of learning, for me, copilot allows me to focus on the larger architectural problems while not having to worry about the exact syntax of certain things (DSL query language, middleware express, typescript def annotations, etc). Every time I don't have to context switch to look up some technical errata in my browser is a complete win for me.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  I observed one guy become very resistant to reading the docs as they believed copilot obsoleted them. Programming in Ruby, the copilot suggestions will run but since you didn't read the docs you won't know that the output doesn't actually work or doesn't do what you think it does since it was intended for a different situation.
nl 4y ago
Everyone I've spoken to who has actually used it thinks it works extremely well. This includes pretty experienced developers. I've never heard anyone claim it blocks the ability to learn - if anything it's the opposite. Many people like how it shows you APIs you weren't aware of.

smohare 4y ago

jonas21 4y ago

Some well-known devs like Guido van Rossum and Andrej Karpathy are big fans as well [1]. [1] https://youtu.be/cdiD-9MMpb0?t=8723 https://youtu.be/cdiD-9MMpb0?t=8723

throwaway2037 4y ago
Please remember that Guido van Rossum is now employed by Microsoft. Yes, I am a fan of Guido van Rossum and his work, but I am always suspicious when famous people recommend their own company's products. It feels like excellent marketing/PR that is hard to resist.
- arcturus17 4y ago
  What about Karpathy, nobody pays him in principle.

spookie 4y ago

Copilot is extremely shady, and everyone should refrain from paying for it until proven otherwise. Others have already pointed out the case as a reply.