5 ms·

Don't forget the cheap servants

by ununoctium87 4y ago

lelanthran 4y ago
- lgleason 4y ago
  In countries like the US that is generally not something many software engineers can afford. In South Africa, as an engineer that is more affordable and more seem to have them from what I've seen.
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > In countries like the US that is generally not something many software engineers can afford. So? You think I'm staying in SA just because once every 7 days I pay someone to mow my lawn? How much money do you think I am saving by staying in SA and paying someone to mow the lawn?
    - lgleason 4y ago
      I'm not criticizing you. It's just part of the difference in standard of living. In the US, only the rich can afford a domestic worker, because it would cost up-words of $200 a day. In South Africa it is a fraction of that cost even if you are paying above market rates.
  - pseudo0 4y ago
    It's pretty common among middle or upper-middle class software engineers, at least based on the number of my coworkers who employ such services. Biweekly cleaning and gardening might run you $100 a week, or significantly less if you can cut out the middleman by hiring a cleaner directly instead of going through an agency (they can charge $40+ an hour and often pay their illegal immigrant employees under $15).
    - lgleason 4y ago
      The average domestic worker in South Africa makes $16 a day and a little bit more for gardening. The domestic will come and clean the house, wash your clothes, iron etc. and put in a full days worth of work. The gardener will spend a full day weeding, mowing etc. etc.. You will not get anything close to that for $100 a week in the US even with an illegal immigrant.
      - pseudo0 4y ago
        Sure, but the median software engineer in South Africa is making around $20k USD (https://www.payscale.com/research/ZA/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/ZA/Job=Software_Engineer/S...) compared to around $90k in the US. Multiply that $16 by 4.5 and you're at $72, or $9/hour for a full day of work. Do a comparison based on percentage of salary, and the difference is smaller than you would think. It just seems ridiculously cheap in nominal terms.
        lgleason 4y ago
        Most that I know are making a lot more than that in ZA.
- Nullabillity 4y ago
  That's... exactly the point? A civil society doesn't let its income gaps get large enough that the idea of domestic servants makes sense.
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > A civil society doesn't let its income gaps get large enough that the idea of domestic servants makes sense. Well then the masses at the bottom of the income gap should start voting for someone other than who they've been voting for, for the last 30 years. You can't blame the higher-income people for this - they have been trying to change the government by voting for someone else, but the the low-income people you are feeling so sorry for refuse to vote otherwise. The "civil" society you seek can't happen while the masses are still voting the same corrupt government into power in every single election. Do you propose revoking their right to vote?
    - buyx 4y ago
      The poor masses have voted opposition parties in at municipal level a few times now. It's just a matter of time before the ANC's vote share drops below 50%. The real question is where those votes are going to go instead. The Democratic Alliance looked like it was going to pick up the votes of disaffected black voters, but instead it seems like its leadership decided to pay more attention to Western culture wars (Helen Zille going on about "wokeness" etc) and to protect its right flank from being eroded by Afrikaner nationalists after the 2019 election, rather than courting the centre. Cyril Ramaphosa's personal popularity helped the ANC in 2019, but it was also used by the DA as an opportunity to shaft Mmusi Maimane, who could have been a viable potential leader in SA. Can't blame the voters if the politicians leave them with a dearth of choice.
      - guykdm 4y ago
        You can only blame the voters if the politicians leave them with a dearth of choice. If a society can't produce a single reasonable leader it's usually no coincidence. Cultural values matter and some societies are inherently more corrupt (e.g. Arab and African societies, as can be seen by the constant stream of corrupt leaders they produce)

Don't forget the cheap servants

lelanthran 4y ago

lgleason 4y ago
In countries like the US that is generally not something many software engineers can afford. In South Africa, as an engineer that is more affordable and more seem to have them from what I've seen.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > In countries like the US that is generally not something many software engineers can afford. So? You think I'm staying in SA just because once every 7 days I pay someone to mow my lawn? How much money do you think I am saving by staying in SA and paying someone to mow the lawn?
  - lgleason 4y ago
    I'm not criticizing you. It's just part of the difference in standard of living. In the US, only the rich can afford a domestic worker, because it would cost up-words of $200 a day. In South Africa it is a fraction of that cost even if you are paying above market rates.
- pseudo0 4y ago
  It's pretty common among middle or upper-middle class software engineers, at least based on the number of my coworkers who employ such services. Biweekly cleaning and gardening might run you $100 a week, or significantly less if you can cut out the middleman by hiring a cleaner directly instead of going through an agency (they can charge $40+ an hour and often pay their illegal immigrant employees under $15).
  - lgleason 4y ago
    The average domestic worker in South Africa makes $16 a day and a little bit more for gardening. The domestic will come and clean the house, wash your clothes, iron etc. and put in a full days worth of work. The gardener will spend a full day weeding, mowing etc. etc.. You will not get anything close to that for $100 a week in the US even with an illegal immigrant.
    - pseudo0 4y ago
      Sure, but the median software engineer in South Africa is making around $20k USD (https://www.payscale.com/research/ZA/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/ZA/Job=Software_Engineer/S...) compared to around $90k in the US. Multiply that $16 by 4.5 and you're at $72, or $9/hour for a full day of work. Do a comparison based on percentage of salary, and the difference is smaller than you would think. It just seems ridiculously cheap in nominal terms.
      - lgleason 4y ago
        Most that I know are making a lot more than that in ZA.
Nullabillity 4y ago
That's... exactly the point? A civil society doesn't let its income gaps get large enough that the idea of domestic servants makes sense.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > A civil society doesn't let its income gaps get large enough that the idea of domestic servants makes sense. Well then the masses at the bottom of the income gap should start voting for someone other than who they've been voting for, for the last 30 years. You can't blame the higher-income people for this - they have been trying to change the government by voting for someone else, but the the low-income people you are feeling so sorry for refuse to vote otherwise. The "civil" society you seek can't happen while the masses are still voting the same corrupt government into power in every single election. Do you propose revoking their right to vote?
  - buyx 4y ago
    The poor masses have voted opposition parties in at municipal level a few times now. It's just a matter of time before the ANC's vote share drops below 50%. The real question is where those votes are going to go instead. The Democratic Alliance looked like it was going to pick up the votes of disaffected black voters, but instead it seems like its leadership decided to pay more attention to Western culture wars (Helen Zille going on about "wokeness" etc) and to protect its right flank from being eroded by Afrikaner nationalists after the 2019 election, rather than courting the centre. Cyril Ramaphosa's personal popularity helped the ANC in 2019, but it was also used by the DA as an opportunity to shaft Mmusi Maimane, who could have been a viable potential leader in SA. Can't blame the voters if the politicians leave them with a dearth of choice.
    - guykdm 4y ago
      You can only blame the voters if the politicians leave them with a dearth of choice. If a society can't produce a single reasonable leader it's usually no coincidence. Cultural values matter and some societies are inherently more corrupt (e.g. Arab and African societies, as can be seen by the constant stream of corrupt leaders they produce)