6 ms·

> Standard of living is very high. Yeah, if you're willing to look the other way and lock your car doors in literally the most unequal country in the world: ht

> Standard of living is very high. Yeah, if you're willing to look the other way and lock your car doors in literally the most unequal country in the world: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gini-coefficient-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gini-coef... And since you're also a Saffer, I don't need to say anything about the daily threat from crime, and how everyone lives basically in a castle with electric fences. Do you have electric fences and private security? Of course, just like all the other white people in South Africa. Afrikaans was my first language, I know how it is over there. Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree about "brilliant place to live", having lived in so many countries (including Poland, Czechia, Germany, NZ, England, ...).

sgt 4y ago
That's often the case - worse in the bigger places like JHB. No electric fence for us, but private security patrolling the neighborhoods yes (similar to ADT).
lelanthran 4y ago
> Do you have electric fences and private security? Sure, but isn't private security and gated living (AKA security fences) becoming the norm in most of the middle-class suburbs in many other countries? > Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree about "brilliant place to live", Yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to call it brilliant, but my understanding is that, even if I move to another country, I'm still going to live in a secure place anyway, only it will be much smaller and more expensive, both at the same time.
- ericd 4y ago
  Cape Town was absolutely gorgeous when I visited, but the level of fortification of normal homes was definitely striking, coming from the US. You don’t see a lot of cement walls topped with glass shards here.
  - nmfisher 4y ago
    Not saying you’re wrong, but I also see these in Singapore, which is one of the safest countries in the world (I’m guessing they must be left over from the 60s when things were more chaotic?)
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  > Sure, but isn't private security and gated living (AKA security fences) becoming the norm in most of the middle-class suburbs in many other countries? No. Even in the US, I wouldn't say gated communities are the norm, and at least from what I've seen of what SA houses look like, they're vastly more serious about security than gated communities in the states.
- karp773 4y ago
  It must be more expensive for a reason, right?
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > It must be more expensive for a reason, right? Sure[1], which is why I periodically check what standard of living I can expect if I emigrate to any of the countries I've visited. I'm frequently shocked that in places like the US it is considered normal to have a 30yr mortgage (I took a 15 year one, and am on track to pay it of in 10 years). [1] High level of crime, low level of service delivery, shortage of opportunities for my kids, etc. I'm not blind, you know.
    - damagednoob 4y ago
      > ...in places like the US it is considered normal to have a 30yr mortgage... Check the historical interest rates of the US/UK vs SA for why that exists.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  I mean, no, not all other countries. I moved to small town in Canada on the outskirts of Toronto. Literally nobody here locks the door, ever. They don't lock their cars, they regularly forget or leave their keys in their car. They definitely don't begin to have my habit of locking doors when you stop at an intersection. There's more crime in other parts of Canada of course, and I enforce a bit stricter security in my own house due to my background, but honestly? Much of Canada is almost as nice as stereotype would portray it. Again, not to say it's wonderful all the time for everybody everywhere in Canada ; it's not and I try to check my definite privilege. But I don't think people here really understand what "high crime levels" really means, on a world wide scale, and I don't think I've really seen a real gated community let alone anything like electric fence, outside of US embassy in Ottawa. FWIW I lived in Winnipeg and various parts of Toronto, worked in Ottawa and Nova Scotia, visited Saskatchewan and Quebec. There are bad neighbourhoods for sure but it's not pervasive and bad neighbourhoods here are better than brilliant neighbourhood in some places I've lived.
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > I mean, no, not all other countries. I moved to small town in Canada on the outskirts of Toronto. Literally nobody here locks the door, ever. They don't lock their cars, they regularly forget or leave their keys in their car. They definitely don't begin to have my habit of locking doors when you stop at an intersection. I'd love this; what, in your opinion, are the odds that a 46yo (myself) with a wife and toddler and MiL and cats and dogs getting into Canada? If I am already remotely working for a SA company? For a company in some other country? I really don't mind living outside of popular areas if I am remotely employed anyway.
    - michael1999 4y ago
      The points system favourite education, skills, and language. So quite good for an English speaking tech worker, if you have the stamina to go through a long and clumsy immigration process. The first step would be to contact an immigration specialist here. It’s a whole industry, processing 300k immigrants a year.
    - 4y ago
- pixelpoet 4y ago
  I'm suddenly realising that we probably know each other; you might remember me from the forums of a SA university we went to, I usually go by lycium :)
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    Yup, remember you :-)
- koyote 4y ago
  > Sure, but isn't private security and gated living (AKA security fences) becoming the norm in most of the middle-class suburbs in many other countries? Not anywhere I can think of in Europe or Australia. I can understand your point though, if you're used to something it's difficult to change your lifestyle and that's true on both the positives and negatives. Someone used to living in a safe country wouldn't imagine exchanging that safety for a larger house. If you're used to the crime and have not lived anywhere safer then you do not see it as much of a negative. But once you have a large house with a bunch of stuff in it, it's difficult to imagine getting rid of some of the items and live somewhere smaller.
doix 4y ago
> and how everyone lives basically in a castle with electric fences. I feel like this is a huge exaggeration. I'm extremely far from an expert, but I'm in SA (right now) surfing and it's not that bad everywhere. Cape Town and the bigger cities felt like that, but I went through a bunch of small surfing towns/villages/suburbs and stayed in a bunch of places that didn't have electric fences. They did have a sticker saying they paid for some security company, but that was it. The inequality is absolutely disgusting though, I agree. It's such a shame, because it's such an amazing country. Staying here longer definitely crossed my mind, so I see what people mean by quality of life. The food is amazing, amazing surfing and hiking spots, amazing wild-life, the list goes on and on. I really wish it was possible to fix the inequality, but I can't even begin to imagine what that would involve. I did my best to tip well, but obviously that makes no difference at the macro level.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > I really wish it was possible to fix the inequality, but I can't even begin to imagine what that would involve. It's not possible to do that, because the government is fairly and democratically elected[1], and the voters who keep supporting this government are too short-sighted to see that trying to vote themselves more handouts doesn't work in the long run. [1] When a government stays in power for almost 3 decades, all the while being fairly elected by the voters, and the voters suffer because of it, who exactly are you going to blame? What exactly will you "fix"?
  - _carbyau_ 4y ago
    Education?
    - sgt 4y ago
      That is the long game, yes. Over time it's happening but tricky..
newsclues 4y ago
You know there are parts of America with the same crime and wealth divide as well?

sgt 4y ago

That's often the case - worse in the bigger places like JHB. No electric fence for us, but private security patrolling the neighborhoods yes (similar to ADT).

lelanthran 4y ago

> Do you have electric fences and private security? Sure, but isn't private security and gated living (AKA security fences) becoming the norm in most of the middle-class suburbs in many other countries? > Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree about "brilliant place to live", Yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to call it brilliant, but my understanding is that, even if I move to another country, I'm still going to live in a secure place anyway, only it will be much smaller and more expensive, both at the same time.

ericd 4y ago
Cape Town was absolutely gorgeous when I visited, but the level of fortification of normal homes was definitely striking, coming from the US. You don’t see a lot of cement walls topped with glass shards here.
- nmfisher 4y ago
  Not saying you’re wrong, but I also see these in Singapore, which is one of the safest countries in the world (I’m guessing they must be left over from the 60s when things were more chaotic?)
TulliusCicero 4y ago
> Sure, but isn't private security and gated living (AKA security fences) becoming the norm in most of the middle-class suburbs in many other countries? No. Even in the US, I wouldn't say gated communities are the norm, and at least from what I've seen of what SA houses look like, they're vastly more serious about security than gated communities in the states.
karp773 4y ago
It must be more expensive for a reason, right?
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > It must be more expensive for a reason, right? Sure[1], which is why I periodically check what standard of living I can expect if I emigrate to any of the countries I've visited. I'm frequently shocked that in places like the US it is considered normal to have a 30yr mortgage (I took a 15 year one, and am on track to pay it of in 10 years). [1] High level of crime, low level of service delivery, shortage of opportunities for my kids, etc. I'm not blind, you know.
  - damagednoob 4y ago
    > ...in places like the US it is considered normal to have a 30yr mortgage... Check the historical interest rates of the US/UK vs SA for why that exists.
NikolaNovak 4y ago
I mean, no, not all other countries. I moved to small town in Canada on the outskirts of Toronto. Literally nobody here locks the door, ever. They don't lock their cars, they regularly forget or leave their keys in their car. They definitely don't begin to have my habit of locking doors when you stop at an intersection. There's more crime in other parts of Canada of course, and I enforce a bit stricter security in my own house due to my background, but honestly? Much of Canada is almost as nice as stereotype would portray it. Again, not to say it's wonderful all the time for everybody everywhere in Canada ; it's not and I try to check my definite privilege. But I don't think people here really understand what "high crime levels" really means, on a world wide scale, and I don't think I've really seen a real gated community let alone anything like electric fence, outside of US embassy in Ottawa. FWIW I lived in Winnipeg and various parts of Toronto, worked in Ottawa and Nova Scotia, visited Saskatchewan and Quebec. There are bad neighbourhoods for sure but it's not pervasive and bad neighbourhoods here are better than brilliant neighbourhood in some places I've lived.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > I mean, no, not all other countries. I moved to small town in Canada on the outskirts of Toronto. Literally nobody here locks the door, ever. They don't lock their cars, they regularly forget or leave their keys in their car. They definitely don't begin to have my habit of locking doors when you stop at an intersection. I'd love this; what, in your opinion, are the odds that a 46yo (myself) with a wife and toddler and MiL and cats and dogs getting into Canada? If I am already remotely working for a SA company? For a company in some other country? I really don't mind living outside of popular areas if I am remotely employed anyway.
  - michael1999 4y ago
    The points system favourite education, skills, and language. So quite good for an English speaking tech worker, if you have the stamina to go through a long and clumsy immigration process. The first step would be to contact an immigration specialist here. It’s a whole industry, processing 300k immigrants a year.
  - 4y ago
pixelpoet 4y ago
I'm suddenly realising that we probably know each other; you might remember me from the forums of a SA university we went to, I usually go by lycium :)
- lelanthran 4y ago
  Yup, remember you :-)
koyote 4y ago
> Sure, but isn't private security and gated living (AKA security fences) becoming the norm in most of the middle-class suburbs in many other countries? Not anywhere I can think of in Europe or Australia. I can understand your point though, if you're used to something it's difficult to change your lifestyle and that's true on both the positives and negatives. Someone used to living in a safe country wouldn't imagine exchanging that safety for a larger house. If you're used to the crime and have not lived anywhere safer then you do not see it as much of a negative. But once you have a large house with a bunch of stuff in it, it's difficult to imagine getting rid of some of the items and live somewhere smaller.

doix 4y ago

> and how everyone lives basically in a castle with electric fences. I feel like this is a huge exaggeration. I'm extremely far from an expert, but I'm in SA (right now) surfing and it's not that bad everywhere. Cape Town and the bigger cities felt like that, but I went through a bunch of small surfing towns/villages/suburbs and stayed in a bunch of places that didn't have electric fences. They did have a sticker saying they paid for some security company, but that was it. The inequality is absolutely disgusting though, I agree. It's such a shame, because it's such an amazing country. Staying here longer definitely crossed my mind, so I see what people mean by quality of life. The food is amazing, amazing surfing and hiking spots, amazing wild-life, the list goes on and on. I really wish it was possible to fix the inequality, but I can't even begin to imagine what that would involve. I did my best to tip well, but obviously that makes no difference at the macro level.

lelanthran 4y ago
> I really wish it was possible to fix the inequality, but I can't even begin to imagine what that would involve. It's not possible to do that, because the government is fairly and democratically elected[1], and the voters who keep supporting this government are too short-sighted to see that trying to vote themselves more handouts doesn't work in the long run. [1] When a government stays in power for almost 3 decades, all the while being fairly elected by the voters, and the voters suffer because of it, who exactly are you going to blame? What exactly will you "fix"?
- _carbyau_ 4y ago
  Education?
  - sgt 4y ago
    That is the long game, yes. Over time it's happening but tricky..

newsclues 4y ago

You know there are parts of America with the same crime and wealth divide as well?