7 ms·

Have they ever tried to emigrate? And if yes, why are they still there?

by karp773 4y ago

pixelpoet 4y ago
The harsh reality is that the programming half of the family got great job offers and stayed in NZ, the other didn't :(
- karp773 4y ago
  So it's purely paperwork/legal barriers that hold them back? Otherwise they would have left?
  - pixelpoet 4y ago
    Yeah they came with and were not successful in their job searching, had to go back.
    - FredPret 4y ago
      That's horrible, I'm so sorry. I can't imagine a more discouraging turn of events
sgt 4y ago
I think this kind of energy crisis article gives a bit of a skewed perspective of SA. South Africa is still an absolutely brilliant place to live. I can say this because, well, I am still here and I am not planning on moving. It of course assumes you have a decent income and that you don't live in a dodgy neighborhood. Standard of living is very high. As for load shedding, you can easily mitigate this by putting up solar panels on your roof, an inverter and a bunch of batteries. You don't even need to pay right away, you just bake it into your bond (aka mortgage).
- pixelpoet 4y ago
  > Standard of living is very high. Yeah, if you're willing to look the other way and lock your car doors in literally the most unequal country in the world: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gini-coefficient-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gini-coef... And since you're also a Saffer, I don't need to say anything about the daily threat from crime, and how everyone lives basically in a castle with electric fences. Do you have electric fences and private security? Of course, just like all the other white people in South Africa. Afrikaans was my first language, I know how it is over there. Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree about "brilliant place to live", having lived in so many countries (including Poland, Czechia, Germany, NZ, England, ...).
  - sgt 4y ago
    That's often the case - worse in the bigger places like JHB. No electric fence for us, but private security patrolling the neighborhoods yes (similar to ADT).
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > Do you have electric fences and private security? Sure, but isn't private security and gated living (AKA security fences) becoming the norm in most of the middle-class suburbs in many other countries? > Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree about "brilliant place to live", Yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to call it brilliant, but my understanding is that, even if I move to another country, I'm still going to live in a secure place anyway, only it will be much smaller and more expensive, both at the same time.
    - ericd 4y ago
      Cape Town was absolutely gorgeous when I visited, but the level of fortification of normal homes was definitely striking, coming from the US. You don’t see a lot of cement walls topped with glass shards here.
      - nmfisher 4y ago
        Not saying you’re wrong, but I also see these in Singapore, which is one of the safest countries in the world (I’m guessing they must be left over from the 60s when things were more chaotic?)
- jamiek88 4y ago
  >Standard of living is very high. Ignoring the obvious massive disparity you are glossing over here I have perhaps a less antagonistic question. Do you have to spend a lot on security? Some of these houses look like compounds with wire fences and huge gates etc. I’m remember the coverage of the Pistorious trial showing all that etc.
  - sgt 4y ago
    We just have an alarm system hooked up to a local security company (similar to ADT) which costs about $20/mo
  - lgleason 4y ago
    I'm currently looking a houses in South Africa (Pretoria East and the Cape Town Area) and can provide a couple of data points. In Pretoria I would only consider living in a security estate, Oscar lived in Silver Lakes which is one on the east side of town. All of these estates have walls, electric fences and armed security guards with access controls that require a remote or one time code etc.. Most houses inside of the security estates have very little if any security measures such as alarms etc. because the crime inside is generally petty low. These estates are very similar to US HOA's with architectural standards, many have pools, common ares, golf courses etc.. The levies (monthly fees) are usually between $58 and $174 a month. Taxes seem to run about $100 a month for a $260k house and in Pretoria that can get you a 400 square meter house on a nice sized lot with premium finishes and a pool. The Cape Town area seems to have higher taxes and what appears to be some community security that seems to even out to the same as what you would pay for a similar house (price-wise) in a security estate in Pretoria. The difference is that it appears that you can have enough coverage with cameras and beams in the parts I've been looking at, though many choose to have the electric fences for good measure and there are some security estates as well.
    - sgt 4y ago
      I'm in Cape Town area but I think you get more value for your buck in JHB and Pretoria, and also the weather is much better there.
lelanthran 4y ago
> Have they ever tried to emigrate? And if yes, why are they still there? Because, while crime is high, and power is intermittent, it is not bad enough to make me give up my 700sqm house on a 2000sqm plot in a (somewhat safe) suburb close to everything, to live elsewhere in about a quarter of the space. Every time I look at emigrating I face a large drop in my standard of living if am in a similar role in any high-paying area in the US or UK.
- ununoctium87 4y ago
  Don't forget the cheap servants
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    - lgleason 4y ago
      In countries like the US that is generally not something many software engineers can afford. In South Africa, as an engineer that is more affordable and more seem to have them from what I've seen.
      - lelanthran 4y ago
        > In countries like the US that is generally not something many software engineers can afford. So? You think I'm staying in SA just because once every 7 days I pay someone to mow my lawn? How much money do you think I am saving by staying in SA and paying someone to mow the lawn?
        lgleason 4y ago
        I'm not criticizing you. It's just part of the difference in standard of living. In the US, only the rich can afford a domestic worker, because it would cost up-words of $200 a day. In South Africa it is a fraction of that cost even if you are paying above market rates.
eloff 4y ago
People do, but it's hard to get out. There are monetary controls, so you have to break the law to get your money out. You will also end up with very little once the exchange rate and fees are covered. So you will take a huge haircut on standard of living. But the standard of living in South Africa is something of an illusion anyway with horrific crime, a corrupt and incompetent government that confiscates private property, a jobs market heavily biased against people of non-African descent (very strong affirmative action), rolling blackouts, etc. My grandparents opted to stay and they did pretty much live out their days in relative comfort in their own house - but rarely saw their children or grandchildren. Source: my parents are from South Africa
- zx76 4y ago
  Exchange control has been somewhat relaxed compared to when I'm guessing when your parents left. It used be insanely punitive. Provided you have up to date tax clearance I think you can now take R11m out the country per year. So approx. $600k per year. So people with a higher net worth than this who are leaving will have to a take a few years to fully financially emigrate, but it used to be much more complicated and restricted. If you have a substantially larger net worth you can also negotiate with the reserve bank! Famously Mark Shuttleworth - the Ubuntu linux founder - had a series of big court cases litigating some of these rules. He sold Thawte for approx $500m(?) to Verisign while South African but then moved to the UK. It's still a very unusual thing and foreigners are often surprised that a country with western style democracy has some China-style exchange controls.
- kragen 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cryptocurrency_by_country_or_territory#Southern_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cryptocurrency_by_... says Bitcoin is legal in South Africa. I believe you when you say "you have to break the law to get your money out", because you know about a million times more about South Africa than I do, but how are they preventing people from using Bitcoin to get their money out?
  - zx76 4y ago
    There are much stricter rules now, KYC on exchanges etc. But up until 2017/2018 I'd say the tax authorities weren't paying much attention and I'd be surprised if people with money who wanted to get it out didn't take advantage.
swarnie 4y ago
Unsure if emigration is still a viable option. Most my family came back to the UK in the 90s and took a massive hit on currency conversion, its got so much worse since then.

Have they ever tried to emigrate? And if yes, why are they still there?

pixelpoet 4y ago

The harsh reality is that the programming half of the family got great job offers and stayed in NZ, the other didn't :(

karp773 4y ago
So it's purely paperwork/legal barriers that hold them back? Otherwise they would have left?
- pixelpoet 4y ago
  Yeah they came with and were not successful in their job searching, had to go back.
  - FredPret 4y ago
    That's horrible, I'm so sorry. I can't imagine a more discouraging turn of events

sgt 4y ago

I think this kind of energy crisis article gives a bit of a skewed perspective of SA. South Africa is still an absolutely brilliant place to live. I can say this because, well, I am still here and I am not planning on moving. It of course assumes you have a decent income and that you don't live in a dodgy neighborhood. Standard of living is very high. As for load shedding, you can easily mitigate this by putting up solar panels on your roof, an inverter and a bunch of batteries. You don't even need to pay right away, you just bake it into your bond (aka mortgage).

pixelpoet 4y ago
> Standard of living is very high. Yeah, if you're willing to look the other way and lock your car doors in literally the most unequal country in the world: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gini-coefficient-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gini-coef... And since you're also a Saffer, I don't need to say anything about the daily threat from crime, and how everyone lives basically in a castle with electric fences. Do you have electric fences and private security? Of course, just like all the other white people in South Africa. Afrikaans was my first language, I know how it is over there. Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree about "brilliant place to live", having lived in so many countries (including Poland, Czechia, Germany, NZ, England, ...).
- sgt 4y ago
  That's often the case - worse in the bigger places like JHB. No electric fence for us, but private security patrolling the neighborhoods yes (similar to ADT).
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > Do you have electric fences and private security? Sure, but isn't private security and gated living (AKA security fences) becoming the norm in most of the middle-class suburbs in many other countries? > Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree about "brilliant place to live", Yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to call it brilliant, but my understanding is that, even if I move to another country, I'm still going to live in a secure place anyway, only it will be much smaller and more expensive, both at the same time.
  - ericd 4y ago
    Cape Town was absolutely gorgeous when I visited, but the level of fortification of normal homes was definitely striking, coming from the US. You don’t see a lot of cement walls topped with glass shards here.
    - nmfisher 4y ago
      Not saying you’re wrong, but I also see these in Singapore, which is one of the safest countries in the world (I’m guessing they must be left over from the 60s when things were more chaotic?)
jamiek88 4y ago
>Standard of living is very high. Ignoring the obvious massive disparity you are glossing over here I have perhaps a less antagonistic question. Do you have to spend a lot on security? Some of these houses look like compounds with wire fences and huge gates etc. I’m remember the coverage of the Pistorious trial showing all that etc.
- sgt 4y ago
  We just have an alarm system hooked up to a local security company (similar to ADT) which costs about $20/mo
- lgleason 4y ago
  I'm currently looking a houses in South Africa (Pretoria East and the Cape Town Area) and can provide a couple of data points. In Pretoria I would only consider living in a security estate, Oscar lived in Silver Lakes which is one on the east side of town. All of these estates have walls, electric fences and armed security guards with access controls that require a remote or one time code etc.. Most houses inside of the security estates have very little if any security measures such as alarms etc. because the crime inside is generally petty low. These estates are very similar to US HOA's with architectural standards, many have pools, common ares, golf courses etc.. The levies (monthly fees) are usually between $58 and $174 a month. Taxes seem to run about $100 a month for a $260k house and in Pretoria that can get you a 400 square meter house on a nice sized lot with premium finishes and a pool. The Cape Town area seems to have higher taxes and what appears to be some community security that seems to even out to the same as what you would pay for a similar house (price-wise) in a security estate in Pretoria. The difference is that it appears that you can have enough coverage with cameras and beams in the parts I've been looking at, though many choose to have the electric fences for good measure and there are some security estates as well.
  - sgt 4y ago
    I'm in Cape Town area but I think you get more value for your buck in JHB and Pretoria, and also the weather is much better there.

lelanthran 4y ago

> Have they ever tried to emigrate? And if yes, why are they still there? Because, while crime is high, and power is intermittent, it is not bad enough to make me give up my 700sqm house on a 2000sqm plot in a (somewhat safe) suburb close to everything, to live elsewhere in about a quarter of the space. Every time I look at emigrating I face a large drop in my standard of living if am in a similar role in any high-paying area in the US or UK.

ununoctium87 4y ago
Don't forget the cheap servants
- lelanthran 4y ago
  - lgleason 4y ago
    In countries like the US that is generally not something many software engineers can afford. In South Africa, as an engineer that is more affordable and more seem to have them from what I've seen.
    - lelanthran 4y ago
      > In countries like the US that is generally not something many software engineers can afford. So? You think I'm staying in SA just because once every 7 days I pay someone to mow my lawn? How much money do you think I am saving by staying in SA and paying someone to mow the lawn?
      - lgleason 4y ago
        I'm not criticizing you. It's just part of the difference in standard of living. In the US, only the rich can afford a domestic worker, because it would cost up-words of $200 a day. In South Africa it is a fraction of that cost even if you are paying above market rates.

eloff 4y ago

People do, but it's hard to get out. There are monetary controls, so you have to break the law to get your money out. You will also end up with very little once the exchange rate and fees are covered. So you will take a huge haircut on standard of living. But the standard of living in South Africa is something of an illusion anyway with horrific crime, a corrupt and incompetent government that confiscates private property, a jobs market heavily biased against people of non-African descent (very strong affirmative action), rolling blackouts, etc. My grandparents opted to stay and they did pretty much live out their days in relative comfort in their own house - but rarely saw their children or grandchildren. Source: my parents are from South Africa

zx76 4y ago
Exchange control has been somewhat relaxed compared to when I'm guessing when your parents left. It used be insanely punitive. Provided you have up to date tax clearance I think you can now take R11m out the country per year. So approx. $600k per year. So people with a higher net worth than this who are leaving will have to a take a few years to fully financially emigrate, but it used to be much more complicated and restricted. If you have a substantially larger net worth you can also negotiate with the reserve bank! Famously Mark Shuttleworth - the Ubuntu linux founder - had a series of big court cases litigating some of these rules. He sold Thawte for approx $500m(?) to Verisign while South African but then moved to the UK. It's still a very unusual thing and foreigners are often surprised that a country with western style democracy has some China-style exchange controls.
kragen 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cryptocurrency_by_country_or_territory#Southern_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cryptocurrency_by_... says Bitcoin is legal in South Africa. I believe you when you say "you have to break the law to get your money out", because you know about a million times more about South Africa than I do, but how are they preventing people from using Bitcoin to get their money out?
- zx76 4y ago
  There are much stricter rules now, KYC on exchanges etc. But up until 2017/2018 I'd say the tax authorities weren't paying much attention and I'd be surprised if people with money who wanted to get it out didn't take advantage.

swarnie 4y ago

Unsure if emigration is still a viable option. Most my family came back to the UK in the 90s and took a massive hit on currency conversion, its got so much worse since then.