4 ms·

I don't think that African dictators are rejecting reason and evidence in the course of administrating their corruption, although they might reject evidence of

I don't think that African dictators are rejecting reason and evidence in the course of administrating their corruption, although they might reject evidence of corruption in public.

inglor_cz 4y ago
Some South African politicians are heavily into AIDS denial.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  Using certain types of denial that western politicians have a history of as a reference, are they doing that because that's what the voters want to hear?
  - zx76 4y ago
    Interestingly I wouldn't say it seemed so. AIDS devastated the political base of the politician in question and people who fought for the right to treatment were also politically popular. I think it may have just been a strange ideological bent in a specific set of political circle. Thankfully these ideas and policies have been pretty much entirely consigned to history now. The consequences were terrible though, nearly a million children were orphaned because of both parents dying of AIDS. I can't find a specific source to cite a specific number, they all reference much higher numbers across the whole Southern African region.
- buyx 4y ago
  Thabo Mbeki was an AIDS denialist, he's been out of power since 2008 and largely discredited. Jacob Zuma came to power partially because he wasn't an AIDS denialist, and one of the few things Zuma can claim credit for was widespread availability of anti-AIDS drugs, and the resultant recovery in South Africa's life expectancy. AIDS denialism is pretty-much dead in South Africa....it only ever was a pique of Thabo Mbeki, and because of his power as head of the ANC, the rest of the leadership had to be sycophantic.
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    The legacy is over a quarter million unnecessary deaths, of mostly young people, though. Which means that as far as loss of human life goes, Thabo Mbeki belongs to the same category as Vladimir Putin with his war of conquest against Ukraine. Only the process wasn't as overtly violent, so the world didn't particularly care.
FredPret 4y ago
The real problem is that most of the people there (black, white, and others) reject the mental frameworks that have been proven to work elsewhere, perhaps due to distrusting the West, or for whatever other reason. In my mind this mental framework features capitalism, democracy, and a style of thinking that emphasizes - or at least accommodates - kindness, openness, progress, thinking in nuances. Basically, humanism. From my experience there, some population groups will reject ideas they see as white, which includes capitalism (origin: probably Europe?) but not communism (origin: Germany!). Others, including white folks, might feel inclined to embrace those "white" ideas specifically, but will reject other parts of the Enlightenment framework. Many think problems should be solved by force instead of careful and nuanced consideration, which is seen as effeminate. Corruption is more of a symptom than a cause.
lelanthran 4y ago
> I don't think that African dictators are rejecting reason and evidence in the course of administrating their corruption, although they might reject evidence of corruption in public. South Africa isn't a dictatorship, but the voters still vote along tribal lines, with a concerning minority (+-10%?) voting along race-hate lines.

I don't think that African dictators are rejecting reason and evidence in the course of administrating their corruption, although they might reject evidence of corruption in public.

inglor_cz 4y ago

Some South African politicians are heavily into AIDS denial.

whatshisface 4y ago
Using certain types of denial that western politicians have a history of as a reference, are they doing that because that's what the voters want to hear?
- zx76 4y ago
  Interestingly I wouldn't say it seemed so. AIDS devastated the political base of the politician in question and people who fought for the right to treatment were also politically popular. I think it may have just been a strange ideological bent in a specific set of political circle. Thankfully these ideas and policies have been pretty much entirely consigned to history now. The consequences were terrible though, nearly a million children were orphaned because of both parents dying of AIDS. I can't find a specific source to cite a specific number, they all reference much higher numbers across the whole Southern African region.
buyx 4y ago
Thabo Mbeki was an AIDS denialist, he's been out of power since 2008 and largely discredited. Jacob Zuma came to power partially because he wasn't an AIDS denialist, and one of the few things Zuma can claim credit for was widespread availability of anti-AIDS drugs, and the resultant recovery in South Africa's life expectancy. AIDS denialism is pretty-much dead in South Africa....it only ever was a pique of Thabo Mbeki, and because of his power as head of the ANC, the rest of the leadership had to be sycophantic.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  The legacy is over a quarter million unnecessary deaths, of mostly young people, though. Which means that as far as loss of human life goes, Thabo Mbeki belongs to the same category as Vladimir Putin with his war of conquest against Ukraine. Only the process wasn't as overtly violent, so the world didn't particularly care.

FredPret 4y ago

The real problem is that most of the people there (black, white, and others) reject the mental frameworks that have been proven to work elsewhere, perhaps due to distrusting the West, or for whatever other reason. In my mind this mental framework features capitalism, democracy, and a style of thinking that emphasizes - or at least accommodates - kindness, openness, progress, thinking in nuances. Basically, humanism. From my experience there, some population groups will reject ideas they see as white, which includes capitalism (origin: probably Europe?) but not communism (origin: Germany!). Others, including white folks, might feel inclined to embrace those "white" ideas specifically, but will reject other parts of the Enlightenment framework. Many think problems should be solved by force instead of careful and nuanced consideration, which is seen as effeminate. Corruption is more of a symptom than a cause.

lelanthran 4y ago

> I don't think that African dictators are rejecting reason and evidence in the course of administrating their corruption, although they might reject evidence of corruption in public. South Africa isn't a dictatorship, but the voters still vote along tribal lines, with a concerning minority (+-10%?) voting along race-hate lines.