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>Would it work? Probably not "Probably not" indeed. Human brains need to be stimulated in order for them to build their neural net. Blindly following instructi

>Would it work? Probably not "Probably not" indeed. Human brains need to be stimulated in order for them to build their neural net. Blindly following instruction is not stimulating. >but our current approach (studying openings, etc.) is obviously not working That's part of the current approach, not the full approach. Kids that show promise in Chess, already train with computers today (in addition to personalized coaching, and strategy study). I have no doubt that the current generation of chess players is best of all time, and that the next generation will be even better. Even with that, I don't think any human will be able to train enough to beat even Stockfish, much less Alpha Zero - just as no human will ever train enough to beat computers at arithmetic.

pvitz 4y ago
Stockfish is stronger than AlphaZero.
- firsttimebigboy 4y ago
  What makes you say that? Everything I've seen says AlphaZero beat SF8 easily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaZero#Chess_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaZero#Chess_2
  - goatlover 4y ago
    Because that was several years ago. SF has improved since then.
    - cfreksen 4y ago
      To elaborate, in the Top Chess Engine Championship (which is also used as a benchmark in the AlphaZero vs Stockfish comparison) Stockfish has won all seasons since May 2020[1,2]. A common runner up for those seasons is LCZero[3], which is an engine that is derived from/a reimplementation of AlphaZero. Stockfish is also ahead of LCZero in Fischer random chess (as hosted at TCEC) winning 4 out of the 5 FRC tournaments. As for how close Stockfish 8 is to a current version of Stockfish, Stockfish 15 has ~400 more ELO than Stockfish 8 as measured in their own self-tests[4]. However, when making these comparisons between AlphaZero and Stockfish it might be tempting to frame it as machine-learning-engine vs classical-engine, which is not true. Stockfish incorporates a neural network when evaluating chess positions[5]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Chess_Engine_Championship#Tournament_results https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Chess_Engine_Championship#... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockfish_(chess)#Top_Chess_Engine_Championship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockfish_(chess)#Top_Chess_En... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leela_Chess_Zero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leela_Chess_Zero [4]: https://github.com/glinscott/fishtest/wiki/Regression-Tests#fishtest-progression https://github.com/glinscott/fishtest/wiki/Regression-Tests#... [5]: https://stockfishchess.org/blog/2020/introducing-nnue-evaluation/ https://stockfishchess.org/blog/2020/introducing-nnue-evalua...
      - pvitz 4y ago
        Great summary! Also, at [1], one can hear Deepmind hinting at that state-of-the-art engines (Stockfish, Leela Chess Zero) will beat Alphazero. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2MncpRMnFA&feature=youtu.be&t=2612 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2MncpRMnFA&feature=youtu.be...
  - dankwizard 4y ago
    Stockfish 15 is much stronger than SF8.
- macspoofing 4y ago
  Not the point.
- Shorel 4y ago
  But that's just the latest Stockfish, after LeelaZero implemented AlphaZero strategy and beat Stockfish, and then Stockfish had to add neural networks to its code to stay competitive.
osigurdson 4y ago
>> just as no human will ever train enough to beat computers at arithmetic. Think of the amount of complex computation must be happening for an elite gymnast for example. Sure, they aren't solving the equations consciously but at some level computation is happening - or even something as simple as making sense of all of the individual photons arriving at the eye. The subconscious is what I am suggesting we try to exploit. Even then, it seems likely that a "special" brain would be needed - hence why large numbers would be required in order to find it.
- macspoofing 4y ago
  >Think of the amount of complex computation must be happening for an elite gymnast for example. By that logic, my cat should be trainable to a Chess Grandmaster level because she performs complex computation as she navigates my backyard. >The subconscious is what I am suggesting we try to exploit. Is there any evidence that a subconscious is exploitable it that way ... at all. Because learning doesn't work that way - especially for higher-order knowledge like Chess.

pvitz 4y ago

Stockfish is stronger than AlphaZero.

firsttimebigboy 4y ago
What makes you say that? Everything I've seen says AlphaZero beat SF8 easily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaZero#Chess_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaZero#Chess_2
- goatlover 4y ago
  Because that was several years ago. SF has improved since then.
  - cfreksen 4y ago
    To elaborate, in the Top Chess Engine Championship (which is also used as a benchmark in the AlphaZero vs Stockfish comparison) Stockfish has won all seasons since May 2020[1,2]. A common runner up for those seasons is LCZero[3], which is an engine that is derived from/a reimplementation of AlphaZero. Stockfish is also ahead of LCZero in Fischer random chess (as hosted at TCEC) winning 4 out of the 5 FRC tournaments. As for how close Stockfish 8 is to a current version of Stockfish, Stockfish 15 has ~400 more ELO than Stockfish 8 as measured in their own self-tests[4]. However, when making these comparisons between AlphaZero and Stockfish it might be tempting to frame it as machine-learning-engine vs classical-engine, which is not true. Stockfish incorporates a neural network when evaluating chess positions[5]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Chess_Engine_Championship#Tournament_results https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Chess_Engine_Championship#... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockfish_(chess)#Top_Chess_Engine_Championship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockfish_(chess)#Top_Chess_En... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leela_Chess_Zero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leela_Chess_Zero [4]: https://github.com/glinscott/fishtest/wiki/Regression-Tests#fishtest-progression https://github.com/glinscott/fishtest/wiki/Regression-Tests#... [5]: https://stockfishchess.org/blog/2020/introducing-nnue-evaluation/ https://stockfishchess.org/blog/2020/introducing-nnue-evalua...
    - pvitz 4y ago
      Great summary! Also, at [1], one can hear Deepmind hinting at that state-of-the-art engines (Stockfish, Leela Chess Zero) will beat Alphazero. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2MncpRMnFA&feature=youtu.be&t=2612 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2MncpRMnFA&feature=youtu.be...
- dankwizard 4y ago
  Stockfish 15 is much stronger than SF8.
macspoofing 4y ago
Not the point.
Shorel 4y ago
But that's just the latest Stockfish, after LeelaZero implemented AlphaZero strategy and beat Stockfish, and then Stockfish had to add neural networks to its code to stay competitive.

osigurdson 4y ago

>> just as no human will ever train enough to beat computers at arithmetic. Think of the amount of complex computation must be happening for an elite gymnast for example. Sure, they aren't solving the equations consciously but at some level computation is happening - or even something as simple as making sense of all of the individual photons arriving at the eye. The subconscious is what I am suggesting we try to exploit. Even then, it seems likely that a "special" brain would be needed - hence why large numbers would be required in order to find it.

macspoofing 4y ago
>Think of the amount of complex computation must be happening for an elite gymnast for example. By that logic, my cat should be trainable to a Chess Grandmaster level because she performs complex computation as she navigates my backyard. >The subconscious is what I am suggesting we try to exploit. Is there any evidence that a subconscious is exploitable it that way ... at all. Because learning doesn't work that way - especially for higher-order knowledge like Chess.