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> If your sex is female you have ovaries. Period. Who wrote that? Not me. That is a cynical attempt at zooming into a very specific feature as though it is def

> If your sex is female you have ovaries. Period. Who wrote that? Not me. That is a cynical attempt at zooming into a very specific feature as though it is defining. (Which the green apple vs. red apple fallacy actually helps demonstrate!) Basic common sense tells us that a woman is defined by many anatomical (and, consequently, behavioral) traits. Let's look at the Wikipedia definition, which matches the definition that the vast majority of humanity understands and agrees with: "...inherit a pair of X chromosomes.." "...are capable of pregnancy and giving birth from puberty until menopause..." "...lack of a present, or functioning, SRY-gene on either one of the respective sex chromosomes..." "...Female anatomy is distinguished from male anatomy by the female reproductive system, which includes the ovaries, fallopian tubes, uterus, vagina, and vulva..." "...a wider pelvis, broader hips, and larger breasts than an adult man..." "...Women have significantly less facial and other body hair, have a higher body fat composition, and are on average shorter and less muscular than men..." Conversely, we can say, quite clearly, that a person born with a penis, who then has the penis surgically refashioned into a "vagina", who has top surgery, and who undergoes significant hormone treatments clearly does not meet that definition. This is a transparent, motivated attempt to erase the definition of woman. Again, let me be CRYSTAL clear. Saying "trans woman != woman" is true and OK to say. It does NOT equate to saying trans women are bad and should be mistreated. To say, believe, or act on that is NOT OK. Trans women are trans women, and that's OK.

Spivak 4y ago
Look, clearly you’ve made up your mind, there literally nothing I could say to you that would convince you that you’re wrong and that trans women are women and trans men are men. So I don’t know why I’m bothering but here. > clearly does not meet that definition. Which is why the definition is being updated to include them. We discovered and are now socially recognizing a different kind of man and woman. > Saying "trans woman != woman" is true Your arguing something on a completely different plane than the actual discussion. It’s should we update the definition of men and women to include trans folks — why or why not? If I define good person as someone who doesn’t misgender trans people then you are NOT a good person and that’s okay to say. Do you see how meaningless that statement is? > This is a transparent, motivated attempt to erase the definition of woman. This is literally insane levels of conspiracy theory nonsense. There is no group of mustache twirling trans people who are out to erase the definition of man and woman. What end game are you possibly imagining for this made up group? Murhahaha we’ve updated the definition of men and women to include trans men and women and now… world domination? > It does NOT equate to saying trans women are bad and should be mistreated. Yes and that mistreatment is called “treating them in a manner different from a cisgender woman including but not limited to calling them something other than women.” > Trans women are trans women, and that's OK. If you care this belief has a name and is called third gendering if you want something to Google.
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  > there literally nothing I could say to you that would convince you that you’re wrong and that trans women are women and trans men are men. All I saw you use is an argument that the impossibility of perfectly distinguishing between a male and a female meant that the question is unanswerable. I'm not only concerned about actual trans women, but primarily men just saying they're trans women when caught in inappropriate places, so that argument isn't totally addressing my concerns but if you were to try to convince me that trans women were entirely women I'd expect it to include an attempted proof that they exhibit female pattern sex criminality. Here's a thought experiment. Let's say you're somewhere where nobody has heard of gender, with a mixed-sex group of people. At a small distance you see a male walking by in a garment that is usually worn by a female. One of the females with you says "I'm glad that the changing norms now let a man wear what was once seen as female clothing!". 1) Do you say "You don't know that they aren't a woman!"? 2) Who's more progressive, you or her? 3) Who, if either of you, is creating a third gender category?
- next_xibalba 4y ago
  > Which is why the definition is being updated to include them. We discovered and are now socially recognizing a different kind of man and woman. Ah, but there is the problem. You've declared that the definition is changing. The majority of people are not on board with this, and yet you press ahead. This is where the authoritarianism of this movement emerges... > If I define good person as someone who doesn’t misgender trans people then you are NOT a good person and that’s okay to say There it is again. "I decided on a new definition. If you don't participate, you are a bad person." This is a cynical ploy to seize the moral high ground, but it is not actually accompanied by moral superiority. > we’ve updated the definition of men and women to include trans men and women Who is "we"? You belong to a tiny minority that has declared victory without the vast majority of English speakers consenting. Yes, changing the definition of "woman" hurts women. > treating them in a manner different from a cisgender woman including but not limited to calling them something other than women. You don't have the right to declare a new definition and then call other people bad for not agreeing. This, again, is the authoritarian problem with this movement. And, thus, it will fail. You have a right to be treated with respect. You don't have a right to control or bulldoze other people. "Your reach ends where my nose beings." "Trans woman" is the most apt descriptor of a trans woman. "Woman" is not. Trans women ARE different than biological women.

Spivak 4y ago

Look, clearly you’ve made up your mind, there literally nothing I could say to you that would convince you that you’re wrong and that trans women are women and trans men are men. So I don’t know why I’m bothering but here. > clearly does not meet that definition. Which is why the definition is being updated to include them. We discovered and are now socially recognizing a different kind of man and woman. > Saying "trans woman != woman" is true Your arguing something on a completely different plane than the actual discussion. It’s should we update the definition of men and women to include trans folks — why or why not? If I define good person as someone who doesn’t misgender trans people then you are NOT a good person and that’s okay to say. Do you see how meaningless that statement is? > This is a transparent, motivated attempt to erase the definition of woman. This is literally insane levels of conspiracy theory nonsense. There is no group of mustache twirling trans people who are out to erase the definition of man and woman. What end game are you possibly imagining for this made up group? Murhahaha we’ve updated the definition of men and women to include trans men and women and now… world domination? > It does NOT equate to saying trans women are bad and should be mistreated. Yes and that mistreatment is called “treating them in a manner different from a cisgender woman including but not limited to calling them something other than women.” > Trans women are trans women, and that's OK. If you care this belief has a name and is called third gendering if you want something to Google.

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
> there literally nothing I could say to you that would convince you that you’re wrong and that trans women are women and trans men are men. All I saw you use is an argument that the impossibility of perfectly distinguishing between a male and a female meant that the question is unanswerable. I'm not only concerned about actual trans women, but primarily men just saying they're trans women when caught in inappropriate places, so that argument isn't totally addressing my concerns but if you were to try to convince me that trans women were entirely women I'd expect it to include an attempted proof that they exhibit female pattern sex criminality. Here's a thought experiment. Let's say you're somewhere where nobody has heard of gender, with a mixed-sex group of people. At a small distance you see a male walking by in a garment that is usually worn by a female. One of the females with you says "I'm glad that the changing norms now let a man wear what was once seen as female clothing!". 1) Do you say "You don't know that they aren't a woman!"? 2) Who's more progressive, you or her? 3) Who, if either of you, is creating a third gender category?
next_xibalba 4y ago
> Which is why the definition is being updated to include them. We discovered and are now socially recognizing a different kind of man and woman. Ah, but there is the problem. You've declared that the definition is changing. The majority of people are not on board with this, and yet you press ahead. This is where the authoritarianism of this movement emerges... > If I define good person as someone who doesn’t misgender trans people then you are NOT a good person and that’s okay to say There it is again. "I decided on a new definition. If you don't participate, you are a bad person." This is a cynical ploy to seize the moral high ground, but it is not actually accompanied by moral superiority. > we’ve updated the definition of men and women to include trans men and women Who is "we"? You belong to a tiny minority that has declared victory without the vast majority of English speakers consenting. Yes, changing the definition of "woman" hurts women. > treating them in a manner different from a cisgender woman including but not limited to calling them something other than women. You don't have the right to declare a new definition and then call other people bad for not agreeing. This, again, is the authoritarian problem with this movement. And, thus, it will fail. You have a right to be treated with respect. You don't have a right to control or bulldoze other people. "Your reach ends where my nose beings." "Trans woman" is the most apt descriptor of a trans woman. "Woman" is not. Trans women ARE different than biological women.