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Keep in mind that in some cultures eye-contact is avoided: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_contact#Cultural_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_con

Keep in mind that in some cultures eye-contact is avoided: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_contact#Cultural_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_contact#Cultural_differenc...

dagmx 4y ago
Yeah coming from a culture where you were taught not to make eye contact and then going to a country where it’s rude to not look someone in the eye was very jarring. I still have to basically look at someone’s temple to get by, even a decade later. The discomfort of making eye contact is just so ingrained now.
- stevezsa8 4y ago
  Yeah this is a common issue for people who move across cultures. I had a boss who said he only hires a certain ethnic group because they always take on more work and never say no. He had 2 of these people end up in hospital and a formal accusation of bullying against him... my conclusion was, he'd narrowed on a culture that is averse to social challenge / conflict. Where saying "no" would be socially unacceptable. But he wasn't aware of the flip-side... that the manager is then responsible for judging the situation and not making direct requests that are impossible to refuse.
  - dagmx 4y ago
    Yeah unfortunately I see that a ton as an Indian myself , where we’ve been taught to be submissive. Many of my other Indian coworkers are always too scared to push back in any form, and many of my Indian friends back in India would work till the early hours of the morning regularly. I’m lucky in the sense that I know to push back often when something doesn’t feel right or is illogical to me. Ironically I was often chided in high school for that as teachers would suggest that this would be bad for my career. It’s actually been the best thing for it, letting me become system architects at multiple large companies. But I see where they were coming from, in that the same attitude would have burned me if I’d stayed.
  - throwawaysleep 4y ago
    > But he wasn't aware of the flip-side... that the manager is then responsible for judging the situation and not making direct requests that are impossible to refuse. You assume he cares. Assuming the person across from you gives a crap about you is a regularly fatal one. Humans are not basically good. They are basically greedy.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      Most humans are basically good. A significant minority aren't, maybe about 10%. Enough that you should never ignore the possibility the other person is a psycho, but few enough that you should never assume everybody else is a psycho. Also, psychos tend to concentrate in certain places. If you're in a board room, or hanging out with a bunch of surgeons, perhaps it's rational to assume everybody else there is a psycho.
      - anigbrowl 4y ago
        Try 30%.
    - RHSeeger 4y ago
      Most humans are both good (empathy is a strong thing) and greedy (wanting what's best for yourself and those are you close to is also a strong incentive). Balancing those two, sometimes opposing, desires is part of being human. It's worth noting that they're not always opposing. Sometimes empathy makes us feel better when others feel good, and the negative impact on ourselves can be more than countered by the good feeling from making others happier.
    - anigbrowl 4y ago
      > Humans are not basically good. They are basically greedy. It's more complex than that, albeit not much. If you are in a hurry skip to figure 3. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.1600451 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.1600451
  - js2 4y ago
    Ask Culture meets Guess Culture: https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-between-FU-and-Welcome#830421 https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-bet...
    - a1445c8b 4y ago
      I <3 you, Hacker News.
  - froggit 4y ago
    > I had a boss who said he only hires a certain ethnic group because they always take on more work and never say no. > But he wasn't aware of the flip-side... that the manager is then responsible for judging the situation and not making direct requests that are impossible to refuse. He was fully aware of the "flip-side." He explicitly admitted he's hiring people solely with a cultural predisposition towards "never saying no." He can ask anything of them knowing it's impossible for them to refuse, even if it kills them.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
I should move there immediately.
- BigRedDog1669 4y ago
  I support you brother
bmlzootown 4y ago
The same is true for some other primates. Eye contact seems to be a sign of aggression: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_contact#Between_species https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_contact#Between_species
- stevezsa8 4y ago
  This is a pretty good point too. It's interesting that millions of people will probably read stuff about "eye contact = trust/attention", when in fact this is a complex topic. Reminds me of the pseudoscience on how "touching your face or nose is a sign of deceit". Turns out almost everyone is no better than chance at spotting deceit. But judges, cops, school teachers etc... have all been relying on this kind rule to change the course of other people's lives.
obahareth 4y ago
Thanks for posting this, I was brought up the same way. It's very uncomfortable for me to have eye contact in a conversation, I usually just do it when greeting people.

Keep in mind that in some cultures eye-contact is avoided: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_contact#Cultural_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_contact#Cultural_differenc...

dagmx 4y ago

Yeah coming from a culture where you were taught not to make eye contact and then going to a country where it’s rude to not look someone in the eye was very jarring. I still have to basically look at someone’s temple to get by, even a decade later. The discomfort of making eye contact is just so ingrained now.

stevezsa8 4y ago
Yeah this is a common issue for people who move across cultures. I had a boss who said he only hires a certain ethnic group because they always take on more work and never say no. He had 2 of these people end up in hospital and a formal accusation of bullying against him... my conclusion was, he'd narrowed on a culture that is averse to social challenge / conflict. Where saying "no" would be socially unacceptable. But he wasn't aware of the flip-side... that the manager is then responsible for judging the situation and not making direct requests that are impossible to refuse.
- dagmx 4y ago
  Yeah unfortunately I see that a ton as an Indian myself , where we’ve been taught to be submissive. Many of my other Indian coworkers are always too scared to push back in any form, and many of my Indian friends back in India would work till the early hours of the morning regularly. I’m lucky in the sense that I know to push back often when something doesn’t feel right or is illogical to me. Ironically I was often chided in high school for that as teachers would suggest that this would be bad for my career. It’s actually been the best thing for it, letting me become system architects at multiple large companies. But I see where they were coming from, in that the same attitude would have burned me if I’d stayed.
- throwawaysleep 4y ago
  > But he wasn't aware of the flip-side... that the manager is then responsible for judging the situation and not making direct requests that are impossible to refuse. You assume he cares. Assuming the person across from you gives a crap about you is a regularly fatal one. Humans are not basically good. They are basically greedy.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    Most humans are basically good. A significant minority aren't, maybe about 10%. Enough that you should never ignore the possibility the other person is a psycho, but few enough that you should never assume everybody else is a psycho. Also, psychos tend to concentrate in certain places. If you're in a board room, or hanging out with a bunch of surgeons, perhaps it's rational to assume everybody else there is a psycho.
    - anigbrowl 4y ago
      Try 30%.
  - RHSeeger 4y ago
    Most humans are both good (empathy is a strong thing) and greedy (wanting what's best for yourself and those are you close to is also a strong incentive). Balancing those two, sometimes opposing, desires is part of being human. It's worth noting that they're not always opposing. Sometimes empathy makes us feel better when others feel good, and the negative impact on ourselves can be more than countered by the good feeling from making others happier.
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    > Humans are not basically good. They are basically greedy. It's more complex than that, albeit not much. If you are in a hurry skip to figure 3. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.1600451 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.1600451
- js2 4y ago
  Ask Culture meets Guess Culture: https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-between-FU-and-Welcome#830421 https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-bet...
  - a1445c8b 4y ago
    I <3 you, Hacker News.
- froggit 4y ago
  > I had a boss who said he only hires a certain ethnic group because they always take on more work and never say no. > But he wasn't aware of the flip-side... that the manager is then responsible for judging the situation and not making direct requests that are impossible to refuse. He was fully aware of the "flip-side." He explicitly admitted he's hiring people solely with a cultural predisposition towards "never saying no." He can ask anything of them knowing it's impossible for them to refuse, even if it kills them.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago

I should move there immediately.

BigRedDog1669 4y ago
I support you brother

bmlzootown 4y ago

The same is true for some other primates. Eye contact seems to be a sign of aggression: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_contact#Between_species https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_contact#Between_species

stevezsa8 4y ago
This is a pretty good point too. It's interesting that millions of people will probably read stuff about "eye contact = trust/attention", when in fact this is a complex topic. Reminds me of the pseudoscience on how "touching your face or nose is a sign of deceit". Turns out almost everyone is no better than chance at spotting deceit. But judges, cops, school teachers etc... have all been relying on this kind rule to change the course of other people's lives.

obahareth 4y ago

Thanks for posting this, I was brought up the same way. It's very uncomfortable for me to have eye contact in a conversation, I usually just do it when greeting people.