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Swiss type deal isn't working for the Swiss anymore. EU was putting pressure on the Swiss to accept a comprehensive deal to replace the dozens of agreements tha

by bbojan 4y ago

Swiss type deal isn't working for the Swiss anymore. EU was putting pressure on the Swiss to accept a comprehensive deal to replace the dozens of agreements that they have. When the Swiss refused, the EU simple lets one by one pass without renewing them. This has e.g. happened with the Horizon Europe research program which Switzerland is no longer part of.

chrisseaton 4y ago
> This has e.g. happened with the Horizon Europe research program which Switzerland is no longer part of. That’s so self-destructive - surely the EU needs Switzerland’s powerful universities more than Switzerland needs Horizon?
- throw827474737 4y ago
  The other way round..
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    Don’t you think the Swiss out more into Horizon than they got out?
- bigbillheck 4y ago
  My understanding was that the EU has many universities.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    They’re not anywhere near where the Swiss universities are if you look at the rankings.
    - the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
      That is true, but I believe this to be irrelevant for what is happening. Switzerland is not funding the shortfall which means that for researchers the game has changed as a result that topic is hot in Switzerland still, in the EU not.
    - phatfish 4y ago
      In the UK at least the "world class" universities do nothing for the native population and very little for the country in general. Their primary reason for existence now is for rich foreigners (mainly from China and the middle east) to give their kids a status symbol education, this includes not failing bad students because the fees are so high. The only people to benefit from this is are the University leadership and the property developers that build luxury accommodation for all the rich students. I'm not sure if it is that bad in Switzerland. If they properly fund higher education for native citizens maybe not.
    - bigbillheck 4y ago
      I just looked, US News ranked ETH Zurich as #29 globally, but Univ. of Amsterdam is #39, Univ. of Copenhagen is #42, and then ten more European[0] universities before getting to the Univ. of Zurich at #67 overall. I scrolled down a ways further but didn't see any more Swiss universities listed. [0] I excluded the UK but I'm not going to check which Nordic countries are EU members. It's well-known that the US News rankings have their problems, but it seems like they'd have to be really out of the ordinary in order to support your claims.
      - chrisseaton 4y ago
        If you look at international research rankings rather than US college rankings (because it's about Horizon) it's very different. https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2023 https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-un... Only one EU in the top 50.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Switzerland is also land locked by the EU. Surely Switzerland needs trucks with food, fuel, construction, raw materials and other essential imports, coming in on a regular basis more than the EU needs Switzerland's universities. You can't eat money or live in a house built from research papers to survive. I'm not saying EU would ever do something that radical, but my point is, the EU has far more screws to turn on Switzerland in case of a diplomatic conflict, than vice versa. Which is why Switzerland tightened their banking secrecy regulations at the insistence of the EU despite Switzerland not being beholden to EU laws.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    Yeah but why turn the screw with Horizon? The Swiss input far more into Horizon than they got out - more damaging to the EU than the Swiss - should have turned another screw.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      I have no idea of the Horizon situation, i was just explaining the leverage imbalance.
- the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
  > That’s so self-destructive - surely the EU needs Switzerland’s powerful universities more than Switzerland needs Horizon? Switzerland in practical terms needs the EU more than the EU needs Switzerland. The current situation is suboptimal for both sides obviously, but from the EU side you can mostly ignore that discourse.

by bbojan 4y ago

chrisseaton 4y ago

> This has e.g. happened with the Horizon Europe research program which Switzerland is no longer part of. That’s so self-destructive - surely the EU needs Switzerland’s powerful universities more than Switzerland needs Horizon?

throw827474737 4y ago
The other way round..
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  Don’t you think the Swiss out more into Horizon than they got out?
bigbillheck 4y ago
My understanding was that the EU has many universities.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  They’re not anywhere near where the Swiss universities are if you look at the rankings.
  - the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
    That is true, but I believe this to be irrelevant for what is happening. Switzerland is not funding the shortfall which means that for researchers the game has changed as a result that topic is hot in Switzerland still, in the EU not.
  - phatfish 4y ago
    In the UK at least the "world class" universities do nothing for the native population and very little for the country in general. Their primary reason for existence now is for rich foreigners (mainly from China and the middle east) to give their kids a status symbol education, this includes not failing bad students because the fees are so high. The only people to benefit from this is are the University leadership and the property developers that build luxury accommodation for all the rich students. I'm not sure if it is that bad in Switzerland. If they properly fund higher education for native citizens maybe not.
  - bigbillheck 4y ago
    I just looked, US News ranked ETH Zurich as #29 globally, but Univ. of Amsterdam is #39, Univ. of Copenhagen is #42, and then ten more European[0] universities before getting to the Univ. of Zurich at #67 overall. I scrolled down a ways further but didn't see any more Swiss universities listed. [0] I excluded the UK but I'm not going to check which Nordic countries are EU members. It's well-known that the US News rankings have their problems, but it seems like they'd have to be really out of the ordinary in order to support your claims.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      If you look at international research rankings rather than US college rankings (because it's about Horizon) it's very different. https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2023 https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-un... Only one EU in the top 50.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Switzerland is also land locked by the EU. Surely Switzerland needs trucks with food, fuel, construction, raw materials and other essential imports, coming in on a regular basis more than the EU needs Switzerland's universities. You can't eat money or live in a house built from research papers to survive. I'm not saying EU would ever do something that radical, but my point is, the EU has far more screws to turn on Switzerland in case of a diplomatic conflict, than vice versa. Which is why Switzerland tightened their banking secrecy regulations at the insistence of the EU despite Switzerland not being beholden to EU laws.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  Yeah but why turn the screw with Horizon? The Swiss input far more into Horizon than they got out - more damaging to the EU than the Swiss - should have turned another screw.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    I have no idea of the Horizon situation, i was just explaining the leverage imbalance.
the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
> That’s so self-destructive - surely the EU needs Switzerland’s powerful universities more than Switzerland needs Horizon? Switzerland in practical terms needs the EU more than the EU needs Switzerland. The current situation is suboptimal for both sides obviously, but from the EU side you can mostly ignore that discourse.