5 ms·

Some stuff in the media today about a Swiss style deal with the EU.

by mnd999 4y ago

detaro 4y ago
after all this the UK is seriously proposing free movement of people (among a pile of other things) again?!
- de_keyboard 4y ago
  Hard brexit was not grounded in reality so ultimately this has to happen. The Conservatives should've stuck with May's compromise - now Labour are likely to take power.
  - squidbeak 4y ago
    A Labour Party that in most respects doesn't sound any different to their opponents.
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      Indeed, this labour party does not support strikes, supports clamping down on protest, etc. and when Labour parry was appreciably different, it was piloried in the press.
  - gghhzzgghhzz 4y ago
    Tories did end up supporting May's compromise, even some members of the ERG. It was blocked by Labour and other parties. It would have been the most practical way forward at the time. It would have been softer and better planned and with a better working relationship with the EU. It would also have meant that Labour would have been in partial control of parliament for another 3 years as May's majority relied on people who hated her and was never going to last for every vote. Then we would have had another election this year not in 2019. I honestly don't know what people were thinking at the time. It was obvious that not compromising would end in chaos.
- phatfish 4y ago
  We swapped ~300 million EU citizen with similar (often greater) workplace rights and living standards for a soon-to-be trade deal with India that will only happen with the mass migration of far poorer Indians to the UK. Indians which are used to much fewer workplace rights. The working visas that are created for this will remove the rights UK citizens have to make the visa holders "more attractive" to employers. Good luck to native workers in the UK competing with an Indian on a work visa that has no working time regulations, holiday allowance, etc. and very little leverage to complain in case their visa gets revoked.
  - kaashif 4y ago
    > Good luck to native workers in the UK competing with an Indian on a work visa that has no working time regulations, holiday allowance, etc. There's an important point to highlight here: low paid workers from India working long hours with no holiday will not actually be able to compete with either highly skilled Indian workers who can already get visas, or highly skilled native workers or workers from other developed countries, even if they demand holiday, high pay, etc. Indeed, this migration report [1] suggests that immigration decreases wages for low paid workers, but increases wages for medium and high paid workers. Immigration doesn't just boost labour supply, it boosts demand too, but not always in the same jobs, so the effects on wages can be uneven. If it were that simple to replace highly paid workers, we'd have all already been offshored, but that never seems to materialise. 1: https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/ https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/th...
bbojan 4y ago
Swiss type deal isn't working for the Swiss anymore. EU was putting pressure on the Swiss to accept a comprehensive deal to replace the dozens of agreements that they have. When the Swiss refused, the EU simple lets one by one pass without renewing them. This has e.g. happened with the Horizon Europe research program which Switzerland is no longer part of.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  > This has e.g. happened with the Horizon Europe research program which Switzerland is no longer part of. That’s so self-destructive - surely the EU needs Switzerland’s powerful universities more than Switzerland needs Horizon?
  - throw827474737 4y ago
    The other way round..
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      Don’t you think the Swiss out more into Horizon than they got out?
  - bigbillheck 4y ago
    My understanding was that the EU has many universities.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      They’re not anywhere near where the Swiss universities are if you look at the rankings.
      - the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
        That is true, but I believe this to be irrelevant for what is happening. Switzerland is not funding the shortfall which means that for researchers the game has changed as a result that topic is hot in Switzerland still, in the EU not.
mFixman 4y ago
This is 100% the government testing the waters to see how such news would be received by the public.
blibble 4y ago
the government have stated they don't recognise any of the discussions reported on https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/20/hardline-brexiters-voice-fears-over-reports-of-swiss-style-eu-deal https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/20/hardline-br... wishful thinking by journalists...
- mnd999 4y ago
  As someone else mentioned, this was the government floating the idea to see how it went down. This has been their MO for some time.
  - blibble 4y ago
    no doubt that government leaks to test policy but this one's such a huge vote loser even the opposition refuse to discuss it it's some journo that's got wind of part of some second hand discussion and has turned it into a scoop

Some stuff in the media today about a Swiss style deal with the EU.

by mnd999 4y ago

Some stuff in the media today about a Swiss style deal with the EU.

detaro 4y ago

after all this the UK is seriously proposing free movement of people (among a pile of other things) again?!

de_keyboard 4y ago
Hard brexit was not grounded in reality so ultimately this has to happen. The Conservatives should've stuck with May's compromise - now Labour are likely to take power.
- squidbeak 4y ago
  A Labour Party that in most respects doesn't sound any different to their opponents.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    Indeed, this labour party does not support strikes, supports clamping down on protest, etc. and when Labour parry was appreciably different, it was piloried in the press.
- gghhzzgghhzz 4y ago
  Tories did end up supporting May's compromise, even some members of the ERG. It was blocked by Labour and other parties. It would have been the most practical way forward at the time. It would have been softer and better planned and with a better working relationship with the EU. It would also have meant that Labour would have been in partial control of parliament for another 3 years as May's majority relied on people who hated her and was never going to last for every vote. Then we would have had another election this year not in 2019. I honestly don't know what people were thinking at the time. It was obvious that not compromising would end in chaos.
phatfish 4y ago
We swapped ~300 million EU citizen with similar (often greater) workplace rights and living standards for a soon-to-be trade deal with India that will only happen with the mass migration of far poorer Indians to the UK. Indians which are used to much fewer workplace rights. The working visas that are created for this will remove the rights UK citizens have to make the visa holders "more attractive" to employers. Good luck to native workers in the UK competing with an Indian on a work visa that has no working time regulations, holiday allowance, etc. and very little leverage to complain in case their visa gets revoked.
- kaashif 4y ago
  > Good luck to native workers in the UK competing with an Indian on a work visa that has no working time regulations, holiday allowance, etc. There's an important point to highlight here: low paid workers from India working long hours with no holiday will not actually be able to compete with either highly skilled Indian workers who can already get visas, or highly skilled native workers or workers from other developed countries, even if they demand holiday, high pay, etc. Indeed, this migration report [1] suggests that immigration decreases wages for low paid workers, but increases wages for medium and high paid workers. Immigration doesn't just boost labour supply, it boosts demand too, but not always in the same jobs, so the effects on wages can be uneven. If it were that simple to replace highly paid workers, we'd have all already been offshored, but that never seems to materialise. 1: https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/ https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/th...

bbojan 4y ago

Swiss type deal isn't working for the Swiss anymore. EU was putting pressure on the Swiss to accept a comprehensive deal to replace the dozens of agreements that they have. When the Swiss refused, the EU simple lets one by one pass without renewing them. This has e.g. happened with the Horizon Europe research program which Switzerland is no longer part of.

chrisseaton 4y ago
> This has e.g. happened with the Horizon Europe research program which Switzerland is no longer part of. That’s so self-destructive - surely the EU needs Switzerland’s powerful universities more than Switzerland needs Horizon?
- throw827474737 4y ago
  The other way round..
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    Don’t you think the Swiss out more into Horizon than they got out?
- bigbillheck 4y ago
  My understanding was that the EU has many universities.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    They’re not anywhere near where the Swiss universities are if you look at the rankings.
    - the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
      That is true, but I believe this to be irrelevant for what is happening. Switzerland is not funding the shortfall which means that for researchers the game has changed as a result that topic is hot in Switzerland still, in the EU not.

mFixman 4y ago

This is 100% the government testing the waters to see how such news would be received by the public.

blibble 4y ago

the government have stated they don't recognise any of the discussions reported on https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/20/hardline-brexiters-voice-fears-over-reports-of-swiss-style-eu-deal https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/20/hardline-br... wishful thinking by journalists...

mnd999 4y ago
As someone else mentioned, this was the government floating the idea to see how it went down. This has been their MO for some time.
- blibble 4y ago
  no doubt that government leaks to test policy but this one's such a huge vote loser even the opposition refuse to discuss it it's some journo that's got wind of part of some second hand discussion and has turned it into a scoop