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I don't get that logic. If people wanted cheap, low-powered cars, they would just use golf carts. If Tesla focused on that market, it would be nothing but just

I don't get that logic. If people wanted cheap, low-powered cars, they would just use golf carts. If Tesla focused on that market, it would be nothing but just a prototype in someone else's garage. It's plenty obvious that the only way that EV would have a chance is if they went upmarket and sold to the people willing to pay a premium. People who care about "affordability" are almost by definition the last in the adoption curve. Now, one could argue that "regulation could help force the manufacturers to push for EV", to which I'd respond "If regulation can do this much, why not just push for regulation that gets the US rid of car-dependency altogether?"

_cenw 4y ago
That market exists and other EV companies are starting to serve it, especially outside the US.
- rglullis 4y ago
  That market only exists now, way later in the adoption curve of a new technology. I am far from a Tesla or Musk fan, but even I can recognize that without Tesla showing up in the market, the best we had was Toyota's hybrid system - which is also still more expensive than regular ICEs and never meant to become a mass-market product.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    There's some really good interviews with the actual founders of Tesla, talking about how when looking for a market they found lots of silicon valley types with Porsches and Prius's and realised they could sell them one car that met both needs.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    If we read “that market” as the category inbetween walking and a full car, it exploded way before. I’m thinking rental bikes fleets (which later got electric assist) provided and maintained by cities for instance, with heavy investments in the infra that started in the 2000s, not far from when Tesla Inc. saw the light.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      No, we are talking about actual cars, with proper mileage capacity and that can carry more than one person and a purse.
      - makeitdouble 4y ago
        Fine, but that market is going to be less and less relevant outside of sworn car centric places. Most major cities outside of the US have been moving towards walkable/bikeable designs, and cars just don’t fit well (delivery and maintenance cars being the exception). I wouldn’t expect a ton of innovation on a segment that officials are openly fighting to reduce.
        rglullis 4y ago
        Even if everybody lived like people live in Amsterdam/Berlin/Copenhagen, cars are not going to go away. We can (and must) strive to get rid of car dependency and we will certainly can reduce the amount of car trips in the year, but this is not going to happen overnight. Amsterdam was also a very car-centric city in 70's, and it took them at least a generation to reduce their dependency. Even if tomorrow all US politicians started pushing for laws that made it easier to move away from the suburban model, the US would still have decades of heavy car usage.
  - _cenw 4y ago
    It might have made sense historically to focus on a different market - but what about now?
zappzoom 4y ago
Golf carts are not street-legal in most places. E-scooters are essentially street-legal golf carts, and they are exploding in popularity. Unfortunately, US regulations and road behavior make small cars unprofitable to sell over here. See: the Ford Mustang EV, which is an SUV with a muscle car's name. Or VW, who will only sell the ID.4 in NA, no electric hatchbacks. Or the Chevy bolt, another SUV with sedan lineage. IMO, plenty of people would jump for cheap small EVs if they could buy them, but nobody will sell us one.
- rglullis 4y ago
  > cheap small EVs if they could buy them Cheap, Small, Large Production Volume. Pick two. Companies can not sell you something they can not make.
  - b112 4y ago
    Ah, the infamous "pick two from three", with the choices thrown together to win a point. But... there are plenty of cheap, small, large production ICE cars. And we've been told that EVs are less complicated, with the president of Ford, last week, claiming they take 1/2 the labour to build. There is no reason this three cannot exist together. None.
    - EvanAnderson 4y ago
      I assume there isn’t enough gross margin on small cheap cars and consumers have shown they’ll just buy the larger, more margin-filled alternatives.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      > there are plenty of cheap, small, large production ICE cars If there are, then why are you complaining that they "won't sell them to you"? > There is no reason this three cannot exist together. None. Mineral resources to make the batteries? Why do you think that Tesla has a waiting period of months.
      - 4y ago
lapcat 4y ago
> If people wanted cheap, low-powered cars, they would just use golf carts. The article author (me) lives in Wisconsin, where the weather is currently snowy and 18 F. Golf carts are a nonstarter. Besides, an electric golf cart's range is only about 25 miles, which gets you around a golf course a few times but not much farther.
- rglullis 4y ago
  Seems like the article author has a problem to understand the concept of hyperbole...
  - lapcat 4y ago
    Poe's Law. If you want to make a serious argument that's understood, then perhaps avoid the hyperbole. Without the hyperbole, though, the argument seems to fall apart, because there are many car models that are significantly cheaper than Teslas.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      > because there are many car models that are significantly cheaper than Teslas. The problem is that you are anchoring your argument on the price of the Tesla. A company that wanted to bring, e.g, an all-electric version of the Honda Fit/Fiat 500/Peugeot 100/Renault Twingo/etc wouldn't be competing with Teslas, they would be competing against the ICE version of a compact/economic car. Price-sensitive people are never going to buy a $18-25k electric car, if the ICE equivalent version costs half of that. "Oh, but it's cheaper than a Tesla" is not relevant.
      - lapcat 4y ago
        > Price-sensitive people are never going to buy a $18-25k electric car, if the ICE equivalent version costs half of that. "Oh, but it's cheaper than a Tesla" is not relevant. Most people are price-sensitive. This doesn't mean they purchase exclusively based on the cheapest price. If the wealthy can spend more to save the environment, why can't the non-wealthy? They just can't spend the same total amount.

_cenw 4y ago

That market exists and other EV companies are starting to serve it, especially outside the US.

rglullis 4y ago
That market only exists now, way later in the adoption curve of a new technology. I am far from a Tesla or Musk fan, but even I can recognize that without Tesla showing up in the market, the best we had was Toyota's hybrid system - which is also still more expensive than regular ICEs and never meant to become a mass-market product.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  There's some really good interviews with the actual founders of Tesla, talking about how when looking for a market they found lots of silicon valley types with Porsches and Prius's and realised they could sell them one car that met both needs.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  If we read “that market” as the category inbetween walking and a full car, it exploded way before. I’m thinking rental bikes fleets (which later got electric assist) provided and maintained by cities for instance, with heavy investments in the infra that started in the 2000s, not far from when Tesla Inc. saw the light.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    No, we are talking about actual cars, with proper mileage capacity and that can carry more than one person and a purse.
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      Fine, but that market is going to be less and less relevant outside of sworn car centric places. Most major cities outside of the US have been moving towards walkable/bikeable designs, and cars just don’t fit well (delivery and maintenance cars being the exception). I wouldn’t expect a ton of innovation on a segment that officials are openly fighting to reduce.
      - rglullis 4y ago
        Even if everybody lived like people live in Amsterdam/Berlin/Copenhagen, cars are not going to go away. We can (and must) strive to get rid of car dependency and we will certainly can reduce the amount of car trips in the year, but this is not going to happen overnight. Amsterdam was also a very car-centric city in 70's, and it took them at least a generation to reduce their dependency. Even if tomorrow all US politicians started pushing for laws that made it easier to move away from the suburban model, the US would still have decades of heavy car usage.
- _cenw 4y ago
  It might have made sense historically to focus on a different market - but what about now?

zappzoom 4y ago

Golf carts are not street-legal in most places. E-scooters are essentially street-legal golf carts, and they are exploding in popularity. Unfortunately, US regulations and road behavior make small cars unprofitable to sell over here. See: the Ford Mustang EV, which is an SUV with a muscle car's name. Or VW, who will only sell the ID.4 in NA, no electric hatchbacks. Or the Chevy bolt, another SUV with sedan lineage. IMO, plenty of people would jump for cheap small EVs if they could buy them, but nobody will sell us one.

rglullis 4y ago
> cheap small EVs if they could buy them Cheap, Small, Large Production Volume. Pick two. Companies can not sell you something they can not make.
- b112 4y ago
  Ah, the infamous "pick two from three", with the choices thrown together to win a point. But... there are plenty of cheap, small, large production ICE cars. And we've been told that EVs are less complicated, with the president of Ford, last week, claiming they take 1/2 the labour to build. There is no reason this three cannot exist together. None.
  - EvanAnderson 4y ago
    I assume there isn’t enough gross margin on small cheap cars and consumers have shown they’ll just buy the larger, more margin-filled alternatives.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    > there are plenty of cheap, small, large production ICE cars If there are, then why are you complaining that they "won't sell them to you"? > There is no reason this three cannot exist together. None. Mineral resources to make the batteries? Why do you think that Tesla has a waiting period of months.
    - 4y ago

lapcat 4y ago

> If people wanted cheap, low-powered cars, they would just use golf carts. The article author (me) lives in Wisconsin, where the weather is currently snowy and 18 F. Golf carts are a nonstarter. Besides, an electric golf cart's range is only about 25 miles, which gets you around a golf course a few times but not much farther.

rglullis 4y ago
Seems like the article author has a problem to understand the concept of hyperbole...
- lapcat 4y ago
  Poe's Law. If you want to make a serious argument that's understood, then perhaps avoid the hyperbole. Without the hyperbole, though, the argument seems to fall apart, because there are many car models that are significantly cheaper than Teslas.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    > because there are many car models that are significantly cheaper than Teslas. The problem is that you are anchoring your argument on the price of the Tesla. A company that wanted to bring, e.g, an all-electric version of the Honda Fit/Fiat 500/Peugeot 100/Renault Twingo/etc wouldn't be competing with Teslas, they would be competing against the ICE version of a compact/economic car. Price-sensitive people are never going to buy a $18-25k electric car, if the ICE equivalent version costs half of that. "Oh, but it's cheaper than a Tesla" is not relevant.
    - lapcat 4y ago
      > Price-sensitive people are never going to buy a $18-25k electric car, if the ICE equivalent version costs half of that. "Oh, but it's cheaper than a Tesla" is not relevant. Most people are price-sensitive. This doesn't mean they purchase exclusively based on the cheapest price. If the wealthy can spend more to save the environment, why can't the non-wealthy? They just can't spend the same total amount.